Economics Job Market Rumors

1. Economist
   5fb0
   

   I accepted an offer that I was given only 2 days to decide. Two weeks later a school located where my wife was about to get an offer called (which we did not know she was going to until then) and scheduled a flyout. During flyout I got an offer, which came officially the next day. I asked my advisor what to do. I still have his email. He said in very few words that I would be crazy not to take the second offer.

   I called the first school and apologized deeply, but this was (and has been) the rest of my life. They were mad. I offered to go there for a year, but explained that I could not possibly stay and have a cross-country commute with my wife for very long. They told me they preferred that I would not come for if it was going to be for a short term. But later they did bad-mouth me for a while and twisted the facts. This came back to me as this is a small profession. I was quite hurt, as really, they were the ones who were unethical by bad mouthing me after they had told me not to go given that they could find someone else (which they did), and they knew I was eventually going to leave.

   However, this did not prevent me from publishing and getting tenure. On the other hand, if I had gone to the first place away from wife and having to cross-country commute, I am quite sure I would not have had the time and peace of mind to get research done fast enough to get tenure. Staying in the first school would have been the end of my academic career.

   Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 29 GOOD 0 NO GOOD

2. Economist
   8380
   

   Demand side. We are in the market. We have our first batch of flyouts scheduled. We will make an offer after we reviewed them all. If someone accepts and then reneges, this is obviously not good. But there are special circunstances and we need to understand, especially when it involves a spouse.

   The damage will depend on how long it takes to renege and when this happens in the market. If this takes at most 2 weeks after accepting the offer and it happens now or until mid of February, we can still go back and make offers to other candidates. However, this would be very costly if it happens in end of February or in March. At this point the market is almost clear.

   Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 5 GOOD 1 NO GOOD

3. Economist
   dd5e
   

   Obviously there will be different opinions about what constitutes and "exploding offer." I have never heard of anybody making an offer with a 24 hour deadline, although maybe it does happen.

   FYI, I took my current job based on a 24 hour deadline. It happens. No comment on how ethical it is although I do not think it was a bad outcome for me.

   Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 0 GOOD 0 NO GOOD

4. Economist
   3421
   

   5fb0: I bet that even under these circumstances it was not an easy decision. I think it was the right one, though. Joint location issues for academics usually take far too long to resolve, and anyone who understands this should respect the decision you made. I'm glad it worked out for you, in the end.

   Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 6 GOOD 0 NO GOOD

5. Economist
   3397
   

   top 20 graduate, but teaching at a directional school here. People overestimate the smallness of the profession. People talk about we know each other, but it's not true. If you have a PhD from Nebraska or Wayne State, and teach at a directional school, you will NEVER mingle with people from MIT or Stanford.

   Even if you went to a top 20 (e.g., Michigan, Wisconsin, Caltech, UCLA), you don't here much about what people in research schools do if you work at a low-ranked school. The comparison of Milwaukee vs BU is off the point, because both places are PhD grating institutions. What if OP's choice is between Cal State Chico vs Georgetown? No badmouthing of Cal State Chico professor could harm reputation of guys working in research universities.

   Just like there are two Americas (one for Mitt Romney, the other for John Doe), there are two academia (one for Daron Acemoglu, the other for me).

   So OP, if the choice is between UIUC vs Berkeley, talk to your adviser, as reputation would matter. If the choice is between CUNY Staten Island vs Rutgers, don't even think twice, just DO IT. No one cares about what CUNY Staten Island guy says about you.

   Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 13 GOOD 0 NO GOOD

6. Economist
   d305
   

   I generally agree with Space Modulator's thorough advice. There is ABSOLUTELY NO WAY you should do this in mid-February. Two caveats: 1. If it's the situation 3397 describes, then go. 2. As mentioned before, it's still January, so schools can go back to market. We (research school demand side) would probably not hate you forever if this happened right now. But then, your employer might have faced special constraints, hence the tight deadline to begin with (which would otherwise strike me as unusual at this stage).
   So there might be a window of opportunity but it's hard to tell from information given.

   Talk to your advisor! Maybe he/she can call a buddy at that other department and informally test the waters. Also, you should not do this against your advisor's opinion anyway.

   Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 1 GOOD 1 NO GOOD

7. Q36SpaceModulator
   Rep: 12

   The comparison of Milwaukee vs BU is off the point, because both places are PhD grating institutions. What if OP's choice is between Cal State Chico vs Georgetown? No badmouthing of Cal State Chico professor could harm reputation of guys working in research universities.

   I would largely agree with this -- although you still need to be very forthcoming about why you are breaking your word. And be prepared for some turbulence if one of the professors at your jilted school is influential. Some ”no-name” schools still have one research-active and well-known person.

   D305 is pretty spot-on too. The more information you share with all involved parties and the more apologetic you are, the more understanding you will probably get from the jilted school. (So the guy who is unapologetic about reneging is begging to get a bad reputation.) And yes, if you still think you have to renege, don't do it in mid-February or later.

   Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 3 GOOD 1 NO GOOD

8. Economist
   94bd
   

   There are three things about reniging you need to recognize.
   (1) This hurts your advisor's reputation and ability to place students in the future. While the offended department may forget, and the profession may not be great at remembering and punishing (although they sometimes are very good at it), your advisor will NEVER forget, and will hold it against you. That means you will likely not get favorable treatment at journals, letters of recommendation will become lukewarm, and that advisor will no longer be your advocate.

   (2) This hurts your school's reputation. People may not remember a specific person very long, but they remember the school, especially if yours is a top program. This means that the people who are involved in placing students at your school will be pissed. If you have a placement director that is working their butt off getting you connections and you do this, that person will be pissed at you for years. See above.

   (3) How do you think your new colleagues are going to react at the place you go. They didn't know you had already accepted, but beleive me, they will hear about it. Every which way. If you renig at school A to go to school B, then everyone at A will be calling people at B saying "what the hell!" If you do go, then you start your tenure battle with mistrust and a poor reputation. There are three things that go into the tenure decision: your stock of pubs, your flow of pubs and the asshole factor. At least two have to be good, and you've just mortgaged the asshole factor.

   Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 3 GOOD 4 NO GOOD

9. Economist
   be8a
   

   One guy at my grad school did it. Since then, the offended school NEVER interviews people from my alma mater.

   Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 5 GOOD 3 NO GOOD

10. Economist
    6fa0
    

    So far not a single person identifying themselves as demand side has sided with the morons going on about just do your thing or screw the deadwood or take BU over Milwaukee, etc. Most commentators have recognized that there are exceptional cases, and the two obvious ones are the spousal-related one and another offer that is just so obviously massively superior, e.g. Berkeley over Chico State, not BU over Milwaukee.

    Even so in these cases, timing and information and openness are super important, including getting approval of your adviser. The sooner after your acceptance, the better, but if you are doing it long after your acceptance when the market has largely closed, even the exceptional cases will be hard to convince the jilted school not to badmouth you with consequences that can echo for a long time, as has been noted, even supposedly nowhere schools often have their lone star who can make big waves.

    Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 4 GOOD 1 NO GOOD

11. Economist
    c504
    

    DELETE THIS RACIST THREAD IMMEDIATELY!!!

    Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 4 GOOD 4 NO GOOD

12. Economist
    b14f
    

    OMG, mortgaged their asshole factor. So many people here have already got a big downpayment ready to go on that.

    Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 3 GOOD 0 NO GOOD

13. Economist
    9a86
    

    I agree completely with SpaceModulator.
    Also, no one mention yet but OP clearly jumped the gun on this one. Accepting an offer in January when still interviewing with better ranked schools, and schools at a better locations, obviously was not the smartest idea.

    I know that candidates are under a lot of stress, and also reading this doomsday predictions at EJMR doesn't help...
    But people during the job market year should take some time to think about their future, and think what they really want to do with their lives. When you go on a flyout, you should be thinking if you really see yourself living in that place for the next few years, and if you really see yourself interacting with people in that department.

    Exploding offers are not unethical as some people say, but are a signal... Not giving someone more than a couple of days to decide on such a life changing issue, it doesn't seem right. But again, you always have the options to say NO. So instead of saying "I don't want to go to place X because it's in a bad location, its ranking is not good, and people there are assholes that making exploding offers" after you accept the offer, you should have thought about all that before.

    Again, the future is not as dark as people paint it on EJMR. Say no when you don't feel comfortable with the offers...

    Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 1 GOOD 0 NO GOOD

14. Economist
    d89e
    

    you guys are pathetic. i know of several prominent people who reneged on senior offers from top schools, after email acceptance. why should the profession badmouth a junior for doing that when it is tolerated for seniors?

    truth is that only losers, bitches, deadwood, and trolls with time to waste would badmouth other people.

    Kids, don't get brainwashed by the losers in this board. Rest assured that the career gain from going to BU rather than Milwaukee outweighs any amount of badmouthing.

    Always do what's best for you. Don't let anyone preach you otherwise.

    Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 5 GOOD 6 NO GOOD

15. Economist
    11e1
    

    The previous message is a very important reminder of something to consider when you are interviewing- would you really want to work with these people? Do they have any interest in anything other than themselves? Just something to consider.

    Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 0 GOOD 1 NO GOOD

16. Economist
    d89e
    

    ^you wish you had me as a colleague

    one econometrica after another

    you still misunderstand adam smith

    this is very lrm

    Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 0 GOOD 4 NO GOOD

17. Q36SpaceModulator
    Rep: 12

    ^you wish you had me as a colleague
    one econometrica after another
    you still misunderstand adam smith
    this is very lrm

    No, no, no, no. I do not want you as a colleague or to interact with you in any way. You are like an animal eating and sleeping in its own waste: so far gone you cannot imagine a more civilized world or comprehend why you are repugnant to others.

    That said, here is my trying-very-hard-to-be-humane advice: Please go talk to a psychiatrist. You need to work through your anger and insecurity issues before they do more damage to your career.

    Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 6 GOOD 1 NO GOOD

18. Economist
    6cb9
    

    Yeah, big cheese seniors play games that junior folks on the market for the first time cannot do. Do not kid yourself if you are in the latter condition, even if you are coming out of a top 7. You are not a big cheese, and the senior big cheeses play in another world. Get real and grow up and ignore the ignorami urging you to pretend you are not what you are.

    Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 3 GOOD 0 NO GOOD

19. Economist
    2300
    

    To d89e and others with the same argument. If BU is so much better than Milwaukee, and therefore you should back out on Milwaukee. Why in the world would you accept an offer from Milwaukee when you are still interviewing with BU?!
    Again, OP made a bad call, and now has to live with that no matter what decision he ends up taking.

    Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 2 GOOD 0 NO GOOD

20. Economist
    fadb
    

    top 20 graduate, but teaching at a directional school here. People overestimate the smallness of the profession. People talk about we know each other, but it's not true. If you have a PhD from Nebraska or Wayne State, and teach at a directional school, you will NEVER mingle with people from MIT or Stanford.
    Even if you went to a top 20 (e.g., Michigan, Wisconsin, Caltech, UCLA), you don't here much about what people in research schools do if you work at a low-ranked school. The comparison of Milwaukee vs BU is off the point, because both places are PhD grating institutions. What if OP's choice is between Cal State Chico vs Georgetown? No badmouthing of Cal State Chico professor could harm reputation of guys working in research universities.
    Just like there are two Americas (one for Mitt Romney, the other for John Doe), there are two academia (one for Daron Acemoglu, the other for me).
    So OP, if the choice is between UIUC vs Berkeley, talk to your adviser, as reputation would matter. If the choice is between CUNY Staten Island vs Rutgers, don't even think twice, just DO IT. No one cares about what CUNY Staten Island guy says about you.

    Your point is valid, but I think if the decision was that clear cut, the OP would not have brought it here. Also, if someone had a flyout at Rutgers, he would not even consider doing the campus visit at CUNY Staten Island in the first place. These two schools are in very different market.

    Posted 3 weeks ago # QUOTE 1 GOOD 0 NO GOOD

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