Are grad students given frank advice about the realities of academic careers?

2 months - 103 posts - Latest - RSS
Thread: 237 Goods vs 90 No Goods

Economics Job Market Rumors » Economics » Economics Discussion

Are grad students given frank advice about the realities of academic careers?

Economist
ce22

In my experience as both a graduate student and a faculty member, there is very much discussion about obtaining an academic job and striving towards that goal. On the other hand, there is virtually no discussion about whether or not one should actually want to obtain an academic job, outside of occasional sour grapes from students for whom academic employment wasn't likely to be in the choice set.

When I advise students who are applying to PhD programs now (or are students in our own program), I make it a priority to give frank advice not only about the prospects of getting an academic job if you are coming from program X, but also about the pros and cons of the job.

In particular, what many graduate students fail to appreciate is that unless you are placing into either the top of the profession or a place with minimal research expectations, academia is by-and-large a miserable dead end with (1) minuscule opportunities for real growth and progression and (2) stress levels more commonly found in jobs that pay better by at least an order of magnitude.

We have an obligation to be more up front with students about this. Maybe some people are.

2 months ago # QUOTE 23 Volod 1 Vlad !
Economist
f129

Jeez, no. As if anyone would give earnest advice to those grad student chuds. haha.

2 months ago # QUOTE 11 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
f5d0

In particular, what many graduate students fail to appreciate is that unless you are placing into either the top of the profession or a place with minimal research expectations, academia is by-and-large a miserable dead end with (1) minuscule opportunities for real growth and progression and (2) stress levels more commonly found in jobs that pay better by at least an order of magnitude.

I think graduate students should know just how hard it is to publish in top 5s. For undergread admissions, schools like Harvard etc. have low single-digit acceptance rates. But. High schoolers often apply to multiple schools at once, and it's a one-time (senior year) thing.

Publishing in top 5s is like trying to get into Harvard etc. Except you can only submit to one journal at a time. And you spend your entire career doing this.

2 months ago # QUOTE 10 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
4275

In my experience as both a graduate student and a faculty member, there is very much discussion about obtaining an academic job and striving towards that goal. On the other hand, there is virtually no discussion about whether or not one should actually want to obtain an academic job, outside of occasional sour grapes from students for whom academic employment wasn't likely to be in the choice set.
When I advise students who are applying to PhD programs now (or are students in our own program), I make it a priority to give frank advice not only about the prospects of getting an academic job if you are coming from program X, but also about the pros and cons of the job.
In particular, what many graduate students fail to appreciate is that unless you are placing into either the top of the profession or a place with minimal research expectations, academia is by-and-large a miserable dead end with (1) minuscule opportunities for real growth and progression and (2) stress levels more commonly found in jobs that pay better by at least an order of magnitude.
We have an obligation to be more up front with students about this. Maybe some people are.

Unfortunately, there are huge incentives to be dishonest and push your students into academia.

I'm honest with my grad student advisees about what academia is like, and as a result, almost all of them go to non-academic jobs. Another prof in my department pushes his students to take really crappy academic jobs -- jobs far worse than most non-academic jobs. My former students are all much happier than his. But the dean thinks that other prof is a star, because so many of his students get academic jobs.

And when my department recruits prospective grad students, our competitor departments point out how many of my students take non-academic jobs, and say "You don't want to go there. Look at how many of their students can't get academic jobs." That's a lie. My students can (and do) get academic job offers, but they're bworse jobs than the nonacademic jobs those students wind up taking. And students from our competitor departments wind up going to really terrible academic jobs. They'd be much happier in non-academic jobs.

So why don't I start pushing my students into terrible academic jobs? If I did, I'd be better off, and my department would be better off. But I'd feel guilty doing it.

2 months ago # QUOTE 12 Volod 3 Vlad !
Economist
7985

In my experience as both a graduate student and a faculty member, there is very much discussion about obtaining an academic job and striving towards that goal. On the other hand, there is virtually no discussion about whether or not one should actually want to obtain an academic job, outside of occasional sour grapes from students for whom academic employment wasn't likely to be in the choice set.
When I advise students who are applying to PhD programs now (or are students in our own program), I make it a priority to give frank advice not only about the prospects of getting an academic job if you are coming from program X, but also about the pros and cons of the job.
In particular, what many graduate students fail to appreciate is that unless you are placing into either the top of the profession or a place with minimal research expectations, academia is by-and-large a miserable dead end with (1) minuscule opportunities for real growth and progression and (2) stress levels more commonly found in jobs that pay better by at least an order of magnitude.
We have an obligation to be more up front with students about this. Maybe some people are.

Unfortunately, there are huge incentives to be dishonest and push your students into academia.
I'm honest with my grad student advisees about what academia is like, and as a result, almost all of them go to non-academic jobs. Another prof in my department pushes his students to take really crappy academic jobs -- jobs far worse than most non-academic jobs. My former students are all much happier than his. But the dean thinks that other prof is a star, because so many of his students get academic jobs.
And when my department recruits prospective grad students, our competitor departments point out how many of my students take non-academic jobs, and say "You don't want to go there. Look at how many of their students can't get academic jobs." That's a lie. My students can (and do) get academic job offers, but they're bworse jobs than the nonacademic jobs those students wind up taking. And students from our competitor departments wind up going to really terrible academic jobs. They'd be much happier in non-academic jobs.
So why don't I start pushing my students into terrible academic jobs? If I did, I'd be better off, and my department would be better off. But I'd feel guilty doing it.

You're a real mensch. Profession needs more people like you.

2 months ago # QUOTE 6 Volod 1 Vlad !
Economist
4275

You're a real mensch. Profession needs more people like you.

Nah. I'm not a mensch. I'm just a vaguely decent person. But yes, academia needs more people who are at least vaguely decent.

2 months ago # QUOTE 8 Volod 1 Vlad !
Economist
eb62

Sure, one should be honest with students about the likelihood of getting a good academic job post-PhD. But being a grad student is rather great -- for someone decently prepared it is 5 years of a low stress job in a nice environment, getting paid to invest in one's own human capital.

2 months ago # QUOTE 2 Volod 8 Vlad !
Economist
eb62

And, if after grad school one cannot find a good academic job one is (extremely) rarely worse off in the private sector with a PhD than without.

2 months ago # QUOTE 2 Volod 1 Vlad !
Economist
b60c

I think that now there are twice as many non-tenure track positions as tenure track. If you are a US student and not from an HRM or MRM program, this is your likely future. A few decades ago it was the opposite.

Our ULRM does not have an Econ Ph.D. program. Every year we get at least one student who we send on to a Ph.D. program. My advice is that from our ULRM, you will likely get into an LRM, or MRM Econ at best, and will end up with a career teaching 4-4 loads doing virtually no research. This is fine for those who want it. But if they are interested in adjacent disciplines, they can become researchers. The same student can get into a decent B-School's Marketing Science, Management Science, or Info Systems programs. These programs love the economics background, especially if empirical. These students can ultimately achieve an academic research position at an MRM.

2 months ago # QUOTE 1 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
6741

Have been telling people on ejmr for years to be careful about pursuing a PhD. And yet they dont listen.

2 months ago # QUOTE 1 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
6741

trust funder detected.

Sure, one should be honest with students about the likelihood of getting a good academic job post-PhD. But being a grad student is rather great -- for someone decently prepared it is 5 years of a low stress job in a nice environment, getting paid to invest in one's own human capital.

2 months ago # QUOTE 5 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
ce22

The point I'm making isn't really about the scarcity of academic jobs. It's about the scarcity of sober advice about how desirable those jobs really are, in typical cases.

2 months ago # QUOTE 6 Volod 1 Vlad !
Economist
d91e

lol at "invest in one's own human capital." reg monkey and p hacking skills sure add a lot to human capital.

2 months ago # QUOTE 5 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
a540

I was told a bunch of stuff while in grad school, which did not pan out - at all. I was told it was relatively easy to get a job in academia, consulting, etc. and it ain't. I was told that Profs made "less" than folks in the corporate world. They just missed two words in that statement: "than half". While my place actually had a decent Masters' program when I went there, I wasn't advised to seek a career with the Masters. Instead, I meandered into the Ph.D. program and found to my dismay that I would've been better off leaving with the Masters and getting any kind of professional certification e.g. CFA or even CFP and moving into whatever finance job I could find. I would be so much richer today if I had gotten anything in finance than my UVLRM life.

2 months ago # QUOTE 3 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
6741

huh? finance prof salaries are very competitive. You're nuts if you think you can get 500k salaries by taking CFP or CFA. you sound like a tr/ol/l.

I was told a bunch of stuff while in grad school, which did not pan out - at all. I was told it was relatively easy to get a job in academia, consulting, etc. and it ain't. I was told that Profs made "less" than folks in the corporate world. They just missed two words in that statement: "than half". While my place actually had a decent Masters' program when I went there, I wasn't advised to seek a career with the Masters. Instead, I meandered into the Ph.D. program and found to my dismay that I would've been better off leaving with the Masters and getting any kind of professional certification e.g. CFA or even CFP and moving into whatever finance job I could find. I would be so much richer today if I had gotten anything in finance than my UVLRM life.

2 months ago # QUOTE 0 Volod 4 Vlad !
Economist
a540

^Do you know what UVLRM folks get paid? How 'bout not even six figures for many of us. If I worked at any finance place doing anything, I'd be making double what I'm making now. Even a financial advisor for middle-class elderly makes more than me. I know Goldman won't hire me - I'm not that clueless.

2 months ago # QUOTE 2 Volod 1 Vlad !
Economist
a540

^One of my friends, who teaches NTT at a well-known place, makes less than $70k. UVLRM ain't no joke.

2 months ago # QUOTE 1 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
6741

Making money as a financial advisor has little to do with competence. It's a sales job. What makes you think you could have earned a very good salary from a job like that?

^Do you know what UVLRM folks get paid? How 'bout not even six figures for many of us. If I worked at any finance place doing anything, I'd be making double what I'm making now. Even a financial advisor for middle-class elderly makes more than me. I know Goldman won't hire me - I'm not that clueless.

2 months ago # QUOTE 1 Volod 1 Vlad !
Economist
dcef

In my experience as both a graduate student and a faculty member, there is very much discussion about obtaining an academic job and striving towards that goal. On the other hand, there is virtually no discussion about whether or not one should actually want to obtain an academic job, outside of occasional sour grapes from students for whom academic employment wasn't likely to be in the choice set.
When I advise students who are applying to PhD programs now (or are students in our own program), I make it a priority to give frank advice not only about the prospects of getting an academic job if you are coming from program X, but also about the pros and cons of the job.
In particular, what many graduate students fail to appreciate is that unless you are placing into either the top of the profession or a place with minimal research expectations, academia is by-and-large a miserable dead end with (1) minuscule opportunities for real growth and progression and (2) stress levels more commonly found in jobs that pay better by at least an order of magnitude.
We have an obligation to be more up front with students about this. Maybe some people are.

Unfortunately, there are huge incentives to be dishonest and push your students into academia.
I'm honest with my grad student advisees about what academia is like, and as a result, almost all of them go to non-academic jobs. Another prof in my department pushes his students to take really crappy academic jobs -- jobs far worse than most non-academic jobs. My former students are all much happier than his. But the dean thinks that other prof is a star, because so many of his students get academic jobs.
And when my department recruits prospective grad students, our competitor departments point out how many of my students take non-academic jobs, and say "You don't want to go there. Look at how many of their students can't get academic jobs." That's a lie. My students can (and do) get academic job offers, but they're bworse jobs than the nonacademic jobs those students wind up taking. And students from our competitor departments wind up going to really terrible academic jobs. They'd be much happier in non-academic jobs.
So why don't I start pushing my students into terrible academic jobs? If I did, I'd be better off, and my department would be better off. But I'd feel guilty doing it.

Here's the thing, though: People whom you have convinced to leave academia have close to zero chance of returning. The students of the faculty you criticize can always go to the industry. I don't think you are doing people who have spent 6 years of their lives a favor by advising them to give up the opportunity they have.

2 months ago # QUOTE 0 Volod 3 Vlad !
Economist
b15d

I learned that many academics are m ill by coming to this place.

2 months ago # QUOTE 1 Volod 0 Vlad !

12…6 Next »

Recently Announced

Upcoming

Economics

Job Market

Off Topic

Job Market Wiki

Job Market Candidates

Updates

Are grad students given frank advice about the realities of academic careers?

Reply »