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Bologna...

Economist
3854

I think that Bologna is a great place if you are Italian (city is small and it is kind of difficult to find a job for your partner if he/she doesn't speak english).

Salary is pretty low [CoL is not low]. You need double income to have a decent standard.

Dept is good. Considering the amount of resources that have, they are doing a great job.

I don't like their attitude as demand side. They "trick" candidates by not explaining to them all risks [I had several students that were not aware of the risks of the position].

7 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
b183

They hired Mihailovic.

Who's that?

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
3102

What arr you saying? Have you lived there? The uni is filled with anti fa protestors dude. Almost everyone smokes grass. The programs are filled with n Africans and girls who are covered in tattoos

Terrible city and ppl.
I don't mean italian ppl but bolognese ppl

You can say that it is terrible position, but this is bs. Bologna is a nice city and people are nice.

Lived there for 19 years

7 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
035a

Mmhh...

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
a611

I think that Bologna is a great place if you are Italian (city is small and it is kind of difficult to find a job for your partner if he/she doesn't speak english).
Salary is pretty low [CoL is not low]. You need double income to have a decent standard.
Dept is good. Considering the amount of resources that have, they are doing a great job.
I don't like their attitude as demand side. They "trick" candidates by not explaining to them all risks [I had several students that were not aware of the risks of the position].

Same here. They say it's a ass. prof. position while it's a simple postdoc. I wonder why they are doing this.

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
1d23

I think that Bologna is a great place if you are Italian (city is small and it is kind of difficult to find a job for your partner if he/she doesn't speak english).
Salary is pretty low [CoL is not low]. You need double income to have a decent standard.
Dept is good. Considering the amount of resources that have, they are doing a great job.
I don't like their attitude as demand side. They "trick" candidates by not explaining to them all risks [I had several students that were not aware of the risks of the position].

Same here. They say it's a ass. prof. position while it's a simple postdoc. I wonder why they are doing this.

It's an unfortunate necessary strategem/artifice meant to circumvent the legal constraints of the Italian system and hire fresh PhDs on the international market with some degree of freedom in determining the terms of the offers.

In Italy, the system is so distorted that postdocs can be paid even fairly high, they don't have teaching obligations stated by law, and are exempt from income tax. However, in legal terms they are not considered "workers" or "public servants" (technically, they are at best some "upgraded students") and their salary does not contribute towards governmental social security schemes.

On the other hand, formal AP positions follow a system similar to the US tenure track (the extent of the similarity depends on each department's reputation) but the pay is heavily regulated by the ministry. Net, it is generally very low (gross, not so much - much goes into income tax and social security) although eligible foreigners can apply for an exemption from income taxation which would last for four or more years.

- Not Bologna Italy AP

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
1d23

P.S. Let me add that most Italian places do this. The only one which I am sure doesn't is Bocconi - reading this year's position AD, it seems they were offering a standard Italian "AP" position as it is recognized by the law. Bocconi can do this and still pay way better because it's a private institution.

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
ff65

I think that Bologna is a great place if you are Italian (city is small and it is kind of difficult to find a job for your partner if he/she doesn't speak english).
Salary is pretty low [CoL is not low]. You need double income to have a decent standard.
Dept is good. Considering the amount of resources that have, they are doing a great job.
I don't like their attitude as demand side. They "trick" candidates by not explaining to them all risks [I had several students that were not aware of the risks of the position].

Same here. They say it's a ass. prof. position while it's a simple postdoc. I wonder why they are doing this.

It's an unfortunate necessary strategem/artifice meant to circumvent the legal constraints of the Italian system and hire fresh PhDs on the international market with some degree of freedom in determining the terms of the offers.
In Italy, the system is so distorted that postdocs can be paid even fairly high, they don't have teaching obligations stated by law, and are exempt from income tax. However, in legal terms they are not considered "workers" or "public servants" (technically, they are at best some "upgraded students") and their salary does not contribute towards governmental social security schemes.
On the other hand, formal AP positions follow a system similar to the US tenure track (the extent of the similarity depends on each department's reputation) but the pay is heavily regulated by the ministry. Net, it is generally very low (gross, not so much - much goes into income tax and social security) although eligible foreigners can apply for an exemption from income taxation which would last for four or more years.
- Not Bologna Italy AP

Social security is part of your wealth. If you want to save the same amount of money as the standard AP contract, your salary is about the same.

What I don't like is the lack of transparence not the salary.

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
173b

I think that Bologna is a great place if you are Italian (city is small and it is kind of difficult to find a job for your partner if he/she doesn't speak english).
Salary is pretty low [CoL is not low]. You need double income to have a decent standard.
Dept is good. Considering the amount of resources that have, they are doing a great job.
I don't like their attitude as demand side. They "trick" candidates by not explaining to them all risks [I had several students that were not aware of the risks of the position].

Same here. They say it's a ass. prof. position while it's a simple postdoc. I wonder why they are doing this.

It's an unfortunate necessary strategem/artifice meant to circumvent the legal constraints of the Italian system and hire fresh PhDs on the international market with some degree of freedom in determining the terms of the offers.
In Italy, the system is so distorted that postdocs can be paid even fairly high, they don't have teaching obligations stated by law, and are exempt from income tax. However, in legal terms they are not considered "workers" or "public servants" (technically, they are at best some "upgraded students") and their salary does not contribute towards governmental social security schemes.
On the other hand, formal AP positions follow a system similar to the US tenure track (the extent of the similarity depends on each department's reputation) but the pay is heavily regulated by the ministry. Net, it is generally very low (gross, not so much - much goes into income tax and social security) although eligible foreigners can apply for an exemption from income taxation which would last for four or more years.
- Not Bologna Italy AP

Hold on a sec: are you saying that the postdoc salary is higher than the AP salary? WFT! Rather than increasing the salary decreases?

Sounds like a terrific deal!

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
173b

PS: I guess that the AP in Bologna are super-happy about this deal. What a nice environment you have. It makes me like my s**tty LRM AP position. Thanks to the OP of this thread. You made my day.

- Not Bologna Italy AP

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
6a96

PS: I guess that the AP in Bologna are super-happy about this deal. What a nice environment you have. It makes me like my s**tty LRM AP position. Thanks to the OP of this thread. You made my day.
- Not Bologna Italy AP

You must not be italian. The perverse logic is they would still prefer the lower paid AP position over the fixed term post doc because the former is guaranteed for life while the latter is not.

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
173b

PS: I guess that the AP in Bologna are super-happy about this deal. What a nice environment you have. It makes me like my s**tty LRM AP position. Thanks to the OP of this thread. You made my day.
- Not Bologna Italy AP

You must not be italian. The perverse logic is they would still prefer the lower paid AP position over the fixed term post doc because the former is guaranteed for life while the latter is not.

Fine. But what they say is "We hire you with a good salary, then we will guarantee (even if they can't) a low salary for the rest of your life".

If you select the good salary candidates, their optimal strategy is to take the money and the after 3 years go away -> not a terrific deal for the Dept.

If you want the low salary for life -> you don't go to Bologna because is a risky choice.

I wonder, from a behavioral point of view, who goes there.

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
1d23

PS: I guess that the AP in Bologna are super-happy about this deal. What a nice environment you have. It makes me like my s**tty LRM AP position. Thanks to the OP of this thread. You made my day.
- Not Bologna Italy AP

You must not be italian. The perverse logic is they would still prefer the lower paid AP position over the fixed term post doc because the former is guaranteed for life while the latter is not.

- Initial not Bologna Italy AP here (not sure who is the second guy who signed as such)

The last quoted post is incorrect. The formal AP position is no longer guaranteed for life. It is supposedly conducive to tenure following a three year promotion from "A" to "B" type and then tenure, conditional on national "abilitazione". Instead, the postdoc type of contract does not allow to follow this route (although it theoretically allows to jump directly to the "B"-type AP contract).

It is correct that if you switch from a postdoc to a formal AP contract your salary will decrease. To what extent the decrease would coincide with the social security (which does not contribute towards your own personal wealth, because Italy is still largely under a pay-as-you-go scheme) depends on the specific postdoc contract.

In any case, it is overall a bad deal. Go for it only if you know you are leaving the system at some point, and you should treat the contract as for what it really is: a postdoc. On the other hand, you will have very little obligations and you will be able to focus on research.

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
173b

PS: I guess that the AP in Bologna are super-happy about this deal. What a nice environment you have. It makes me like my s**tty LRM AP position. Thanks to the OP of this thread. You made my day.
- Not Bologna Italy AP

You must not be italian. The perverse logic is they would still prefer the lower paid AP position over the fixed term post doc because the former is guaranteed for life while the latter is not.

- Initial not Bologna Italy AP here (not sure who is the second guy who signed as such)
The last quoted post is incorrect. The formal AP position is no longer guaranteed for life. It is supposedly conducive to tenure following a three year promotion from "A" to "B" type and then tenure, conditional on national "abilitazione". Instead, the postdoc type of contract does not allow to follow this route (although it theoretically allows to jump directly to the "B"-type AP contract).
It is correct that if you switch from a postdoc to a formal AP contract your salary will decrease. To what extent the decrease would coincide with the social security (which does not contribute towards your own personal wealth, because Italy is still largely under a pay-as-you-go scheme) depends on the specific postdoc contract.
In any case, it is overall a bad deal. Go for it only if you know you are leaving the system at some point, and you should treat the contract as for what it really is: a postdoc. On the other hand, you will have very little obligations and you will be able to focus on research.

I see. I wonder where is the gain for Bologna Dept.

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
1d23

As for the "pay-as-you-go" system: it may be confusing to somebody, but here's how it works. Pensions are all paid out of a big national (state-owned) pension fund called INPS, which is incidentally the source of a dataset used in many recent interesting papers, including JMPs by HMR JMCs. The fund is managed quite well despite foreign perceptions that Italian pensions are way too generous (they are not). The pension you can expect is more of a function of your last received salary - and total number of years in the workforce contributing to the social security - than of your capitalized contributions. This distorted the wage schemes in the country in a way that really benefits long-tenured workers - including in the Academia - rather than productivity per se. However, the system is subject to a lot of political pressure (both ways) and you can expect it to be regularly "reformed".

7 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 1 No Good !
Economist
1d23

So, long story short: full professors in Italy make A LOT of money (gross and even net) compared to many of their European counterparts. The distortion really harms young APs. Sorry for the many subsequent messages.

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
eb0f

Is Bologna a good place tho? Is it top 20 Euro?

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
5a95

Is Bologna a good place tho? Is it top 20 Euro?

Top 50 in Europe.

Decent place (more than decent if you consider the resources that they have).

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !
Economist
eb0f

Is Bologna a good place tho? Is it top 20 Euro?

Top 50 in Europe.
Decent place (more than decent if you consider the resources that they have).

Top 50 in Europe? There aren't even 50 departments in Europe...

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 1 No Good !
Economist
eb0f

Is Bologna a good place tho? Is it top 20 Euro?

bump

7 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !

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