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• Thread: 1021 Goods vs 334 No Goods

1. Economist
   a214
   

   sincere question: are you MRM?

   It's a good job if you make tenure. But most people fail and it's incredibly sad. I got lucky and made it, but, along the way, saw plenty of deserving and hard working people fail. Moving is not a big deal, if you don't have family. But, if you have young kids, a working partner, it becomes hard - and I saw many people "fall far" because they did not want to move - and end up taking some adjunct position or move to a community college, just to avoid moving. Seeing someone who spend 10 years working 12-16 hour days trying to make tenure eventually fail is soul-crushing, if you have any empathy. And "failure" is hard to define - but I am talking about someone who worked hard to become a researcher and end up in a position that is mainly teaching/service.
   It's also sad to lose friends. By the time I made tenure, all the people I had made friends with had been fired. At first you don't notice, because you are selfishly obsessed with your own career path. But once that is secure, you realize how the turnover around you affects you.
   Finally, the unfairness is also depressing. There is luck, and that is a huge component. Some papers don't deserve to be published at top journals. But, among those that do deserve publication, some get lucky in the referee-drawing game, and some don't. There is also nepotism/favoritism at play, which adds frustration. But I think the noise in the process is more damaging overall.
   Am I happy with my life choice? Yes, because I worked hard AND got lucky and now live a great life - well paid, flexible hours, spent my days thinking about topics I genuinely care about.
   Yet, when students ask me "should I go for a PhD?" I hesitate. The risk is too great, to be frank. There are few professions in which you can be smart, work hard, and still fail. This is one of them.
   

   Around 50-60, based on ASU ranks. 3-0 school with “3As and something else” expectations.

   2 years ago # QUOTE 3 Jab 1 No Jab !

2. Economist
   a214
   

   By the way, thanks to everyone who had kind words about my post.

   2 years ago # QUOTE 7 Jab 0 No Jab !

3. Economist
   7064
   

   I feel that the fact this post (and other kind ones) gets gooded a lot means that we all still are inherently benevolent, or at least think its better to be that. Or perhaps the majority of us do.
   - phd meat with no power but find this thread informative..

   I did exactly the same to recently minted APs we hired (those I liked at least). I offered them my own 'insider' view of what the department as a whole looks for when tenuring people. I told them about almost all previous tenure cases (including mine) and what some colleagues thought as negatives and others as positives. I even gave example of what kind of tenurable CV we are looking for, i.e. At least a single author top-field journal, co-authored work is fine if with other junior people (better if it is with one of our own Ph.D. students). Have at least X number of papers published, Y number of papers in such and such journals in R&R status, and this Z number of working papers by the time you're up for tenure. Get at least this XX% in your undergraduate teaching evaluation, and at least YY% in your graduate. Invite your editors/Associate Editors for a seminar, wine/dine them. Present at AEAs, Econometric Society, and regional reputable field conferences, etc.
   You guys might be surprise how often junior people simply ignore advice. Perhaps 1 in 5 listened and I can call some colleagues and other were hired in better-ranked departments, the other 4 in 5 are not longer with us. One piece of advice: If somebody takes the time to reach out to you and bother to ask you "Hey Johnny, what's the status of your JMP?" in the first 3 months since you joined. This person cares and seek their advice.

   The first year you arrived, I reached out to you, took you for lunch, invited over for dinner. I always asked you how your papers were going? I have you unsolicited advice on what outlets you might have sent them. Warned you about journals with long delays, against only working with senior people or former advisors. Yet you never listened, so i gave up. Our vote was unanimous against your tenure case, and I slept well that night knowing that I did my best earlier on to point you in the right direction. You are a decent human being, but publications and professionalism is what matters for tenure. Good luck with your life.
   

   2 years ago # QUOTE 4 Jab 1 No Jab !

4. Economist
   c32e
   

   This song describes the lives of many AP (EJR -- Why are you deleting my post when I include a youtub*e link?)

   Chris Stapleton - Broken Halos

   Seen my share of broken halos
   Folded wings that used to fly
   They've all gone wherever they go
   Broken halos that used to shine
   Angels come down from the heavens
   Just to help us on our way
   Come to teach us, then they leave us
   And they find some other soul to save
   Seen my share of broken halos
   Folded wings that used to fly
   They've all gone wherever they go
   Broken halos that used to shine
   Broken halos that used to shine
   Don't go looking for the reasons
   Don't go asking Jesus why
   We're not meant to know the answers
   They belong to the by and by
   They belong to the by and by
   Seen my share of broken halos
   Folded wings that used to fly
   They've all gone wherever they go
   Broken halos that used to shine
   Broken halos that used to shine
   Broken halos that used to shine
   Broken halos that used to shine

   2 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 1 No Jab !

5. Economist
   9480
   

   meat on the market - take notice and don't become a broken halo that used to shine. Go to industry. Do not give in to the pressure of your advisers. They just want RAs that will write papers for them/ to brag how good they have been in placing their students.

   2 years ago # QUOTE 8 Jab 1 No Jab !

6. Economist
   9480
   

   Actually, just don't to a PhD in the first place. It's such a bad path.

   2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

7. Economist
   9480
   

   It will lead to panic attacks and depression even if you were the strongest and most stable people before you did a PhD. Just read what's going on here.

   2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

8. Economist
   454f
   

   Misread the thread as "Depressed antidepressant professor"

   2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

9. Economist
   bbee
   

   Do you hear this undergrads? Let me repeat this load and clear: Do not pursue a PhD. For at least 80% of the people this leads to a more miserable life than the alternative.

   2 years ago # QUOTE 3 Jab 0 No Jab !

10. Economist
    1918
    

    Do you hear this undergrads? Let me repeat this load and clear: Do not pursue a PhD. For at least 80% of the people this leads to a more miserable life than the alternative.

    Seems like good science.

    From what I can observe, having worked in both the private sector and in academia, about 95% of academics would be eaten alive in all but the most mundane or specialized industry jobs.

    Perhaps the greenness of the grass is different, conditional on your perspective? Or something like that.

    2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

11. Economist
    e056
    

    Academia is a dead end. OP being denied tenure might be a blessing in disguise.

    This. My salary is fixed in nominal terms, and thus decays in real terms at the rate of inflation. If I publish well I'll get a $10k bump in 3 years, which means I'll have a smaller salary in real terms as when I was hired 3 years ago, after publishing well (and many get kicked out at my school). In addition, we've had benefits cut, so in fact I'll be getting less. If I continue to publish well, I might get another $10k bump down the road. I can only save about $3k a month on my salary. I'm nearing 40, have little savings, don't own my own car or house. Academia is not a smart financial choice.

    I wrote this last year. With the benefit of hindsight, I still believe it. I got another 2% salary cut this year in real terms (fixed nominal salary minus 2% inflation). I also got two publications to go down, worked hard on my teaching, did a lot of service, and have worked very hard on new projects. For all this work I was met with a real salary cut.

    2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

12. Economist
    5b9f
    

    Academia is a dead end. OP being denied tenure might be a blessing in disguise.

    This. My salary is fixed in nominal terms, and thus decays in real terms at the rate of inflation. If I publish well I'll get a $10k bump in 3 years, which means I'll have a smaller salary in real terms as when I was hired 3 years ago, after publishing well (and many get kicked out at my school). In addition, we've had benefits cut, so in fact I'll be getting less. If I continue to publish well, I might get another $10k bump down the road. I can only save about $3k a month on my salary. I'm nearing 40, have little savings, don't own my own car or house. Academia is not a smart financial choice.

    I wrote this last year. With the benefit of hindsight, I still believe it. I got another 2% salary cut this year in real terms (fixed nominal salary minus 2% inflation). I also got two publications to go down, worked hard on my teaching, did a lot of service, and have worked very hard on new projects. For all this work I was met with a real salary cut.

    1. it is the only profession where you can literally not show up to work multiple days in a row and no one will know or care

    2. yoga pants

    2 years ago # QUOTE 6 Jab 0 No Jab !

13. Economist
    dcd5
    

    Academia is a dead end. OP being denied tenure might be a blessing in disguise.

    This. My salary is fixed in nominal terms, and thus decays in real terms at the rate of inflation. If I publish well I'll get a $10k bump in 3 years, which means I'll have a smaller salary in real terms as when I was hired 3 years ago, after publishing well (and many get kicked out at my school). In addition, we've had benefits cut, so in fact I'll be getting less. If I continue to publish well, I might get another $10k bump down the road. I can only save about $3k a month on my salary. I'm nearing 40, have little savings, don't own my own car or house. Academia is not a smart financial choice.

    I wrote this last year. With the benefit of hindsight, I still believe it. I got another 2% salary cut this year in real terms (fixed nominal salary minus 2% inflation). I also got two publications to go down, worked hard on my teaching, did a lot of service, and have worked very hard on new projects. For all this work I was met with a real salary cut.

    1. it is the only profession where you can literally not show up to work multiple days in a row and no one will know or care
    2. yoga pants

    This guy gets it. I love academia. This stuff more than offsets the 'low salary'

    2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

14. Economist
    cfae
    

    I don't understand "low salary." I am at a public university in a mid-size US city, and I make about $300k/year with a 3-0 teaching load. I live like a king!

    2 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 3 No Jab !

15. Economist
    0337
    

    I think that in terms of its objective characteristics, an academic economics career is actually very well suited to one's mental well-being. Teaching, reading, doing research, writing, being on some committees, traveling to conferences, having a flexible schedule, long holidays, upper middle class salary combined with good benefits and not too consumerist of a peer group, being around young people, etc. all these can make for a very nice lifestyle for the right type of person.

    The problem, mostly in HRMs and top MRMs, is that people are just too obsessed with the rankings and prestige of their research. Even tenured faculty tend to invest an inordinate amount of mental energy into journal rankings, department rankings, gossip about various people's publication records, gossip about how highly some HRM thinks about someone, etc. Most of this is not for any practical purpose but just because of an obsessiveness with one's relative position within the profession. This is a recipe for being quite miserable and jointly making those around you miserable too.

    If you are an AP, you of course have to know about journal rankings, etc. and know how to play the game for practical reasons. But this is really just a game and it's better to not take any of it very personally. If your self-judgement depends on whether you tend to be publish in a top general interest journal or in a top field journal or (the horror!) a second tier field journal, that is both very sad and rather insane.

    2 years ago # QUOTE 12 Jab 2 No Jab !

16. Economist
    4b4a
    

    ^ 100% agree
    I am an LRM tenured professor and I no longer care about the game. Sure, I want to get paid OK so I still do some research but not after 3:30pm or on weekends. I take long (one month) vacations and I can and do quit on days when I feel tired/bored. It is hard to put a price on this amount of flexibility ....

    2 years ago # QUOTE 4 Jab 0 No Jab !

17. Economist
    11a1
    

    This is true only after you get tenure. Fewer and fewer people find academic jobs and get tenure, so it's becoming more difficult to reach what you have described here. That's why I am saying - stay away!!!

    I think that in terms of its objective characteristics, an academic economics career is actually very well suited to one's mental well-being. Teaching, reading, doing research, writing, being on some committees, traveling to conferences, having a flexible schedule, long holidays, upper middle class salary combined with good benefits and not too consumerist of a peer group, being around young people, etc. all these can make for a very nice lifestyle for the right type of person.
    The problem, mostly in HRMs and top MRMs, is that people are just too obsessed with the rankings and prestige of their research. Even tenured faculty tend to invest an inordinate amount of mental energy into journal rankings, department rankings, gossip about various people's publication records, gossip about how highly some HRM thinks about someone, etc. Most of this is not for any practical purpose but just because of an obsessiveness with one's relative position within the profession. This is a recipe for being quite miserable and jointly making those around you miserable too.
    If you are an AP, you of course have to know about journal rankings, etc. and know how to play the game for practical reasons. But this is really just a game and it's better to not take any of it very personally. If your self-judgement depends on whether you tend to be publish in a top general interest journal or in a top field journal or (the horror!) a second tier field journal, that is both very sad and rather insane.

    2 years ago # QUOTE 2 Jab 0 No Jab !

18. Economist
    10a0
    

    Researchers tend to really like their research. Sounds like you're not cut out for this game.

    I'm probably going to get fired too. I've worked hard, but it hasn't been enough. Some of my colleagues look at me like I'm a failure. They've wrapped up their entire identity in their publications. I guess I could have done the same and probably would have published with some success. But, I have other things that matter more to me. I see my colleagues who are so obsessed with their careers as kind of sad. None of them are going to win a Nobel, or change the world. And they are missing out on life. If they don't want to be nice to me that's their problem, not mine. I feel sad for them, actually.

    2 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !

19. Economist
    10a0
    

    It seems that a lot of people think hard work is going to magically get them a good job in academia. Of course this is ridiculous. Be self-aware and quit academia once you realised that you won't be able to publish well enough. This is something that many fail to grasp.

    2 years ago # QUOTE 2 Jab 1 No Jab !

20. Economist
    7db6
    

    Let's be honest. Luck and randomness also play a big role.

    It seems that a lot of people think hard work is going to magically get them a good job in academia. Of course this is ridiculous. Be self-aware and quit academia once you realised that you won't be able to publish well enough. This is something that many fail to grasp.

    2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 1 No Jab !

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