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Exodus from Oxford

Economist
3f9c

This discussion and the preceding threats politely suggest that the department is effectively implementing a two-tier system with 'research leaders' and 'leading lecturers'.

The imbalance in teaching and administrative duties between the two positions inevitably may (will?) create two different career paths in the long run.

In US departments everyone is entitled to the same amount of research time (and nobody is institutionally entitled to claim research leadership over colleagues). What I find even more extraordinary is that a person (a committee?) inside the department will decide who are the 'research leaders.' Not a good way to create a genuinely collegial system I think.

Any view from insiders on this?

1 month ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
cb8b

This discussion and the preceding threats politely suggest that the department is effectively implementing a two-tier system with 'research leaders' and 'leading lecturers'.
The imbalance in teaching and administrative duties between the two positions inevitably may (will?) create two different career paths in the long run.

You are being way too generous, saying that there are two tracks. Research track is only for very senior people and very very few of them who can be relived of college teaching, junior people are stuck with endless college tutorials. Oxford has a regressive system, where junior people do the most, compared to any other reputable similar institution where juniors are protected.

See the distribution: The last market they advertised 5 AP positions all with endless college tutorials and admin, and this year 3 AP positions also with endless college tutorials. It is very clear from the ads these are heavy teaching/admin positions, mostly from the college. That is a total of 8 out of 8 college tutors that needed replacement. All are still endless teaching track, which actually should not even be called track, since most leave anyway.

It will take incredible persistence, endless burocratic meetings, and change from the very hierarchical central university administration. But one day they will advertise without heavy college teaching (outside of Nuffield), and maybe a decent salary (just maybe, because from the discussion here apparently they do not have as much money as the uni claims has. Or money at least to spend in actual academics, and not oil salesmen who bring grant money). Until then, at least now they are advertising at the junior market for unaware candidates. Most will leave within short years once the realize the expense of the city, the admin and teaching burdens. Good ones are available to survive and leave...

1 month ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
5246

This discussion and the preceding threats politely suggest that the department is effectively implementing a two-tier system with 'research leaders' and 'leading lecturers'.
The imbalance in teaching and administrative duties between the two positions inevitably may (will?) create two different career paths in the long run.

You are being way too generous, saying that there are two tracks. Research track is only for very senior people and very very few of them who can be relived of college teaching, junior people are stuck with endless college tutorials. Oxford has a regressive system, where junior people do the most, compared to any other reputable similar institution where juniors are protected.
See the distribution: The last market they advertised 5 AP positions all with endless college tutorials and admin, and this year 3 AP positions also with endless college tutorials. It is very clear from the ads these are heavy teaching/admin positions, mostly from the college. That is a total of 8 out of 8 college tutors that needed replacement. All are still endless teaching track, which actually should not even be called track, since most leave anyway.
It will take incredible persistence, endless burocratic meetings, and change from the very hierarchical central university administration. But one day they will advertise without heavy college teaching (outside of Nuffield), and maybe a decent salary (just maybe, because from the discussion here apparently they do not have as much money as the uni claims has. Or money at least to spend in actual academics, and not oil salesmen who bring grant money). Until then, at least now they are advertising at the junior market for unaware candidates. Most will leave within short years once the realize the expense of the city, the admin and teaching burdens. Good ones are available to survive and leave...

They've now advertised an additional AP post in this cycle (at ChristChurch), so four advertised now in total

1 month ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
5246

This discussion and the preceding threats politely suggest that the department is effectively implementing a two-tier system with 'research leaders' and 'leading lecturers'.
The imbalance in teaching and administrative duties between the two positions inevitably may (will?) create two different career paths in the long run.

You are being way too generous, saying that there are two tracks. Research track is only for very senior people and very very few of them who can be relived of college teaching, junior people are stuck with endless college tutorials. Oxford has a regressive system, where junior people do the most, compared to any other reputable similar institution where juniors are protected.
See the distribution: The last market they advertised 5 AP positions all with endless college tutorials and admin, and this year 3 AP positions also with endless college tutorials. It is very clear from the ads these are heavy teaching/admin positions, mostly from the college. That is a total of 8 out of 8 college tutors that needed replacement. All are still endless teaching track, which actually should not even be called track, since most leave anyway.
It will take incredible persistence, endless burocratic meetings, and change from the very hierarchical central university administration. But one day they will advertise without heavy college teaching (outside of Nuffield), and maybe a decent salary (just maybe, because from the discussion here apparently they do not have as much money as the uni claims has. Or money at least to spend in actual academics, and not oil salesmen who bring grant money). Until then, at least now they are advertising at the junior market for unaware candidates. Most will leave within short years once the realize the expense of the city, the admin and teaching burdens. Good ones are available to survive and leave...

They've now advertised an additional AP post in this cycle (at ChristChurch), so four advertised now in total

PS Because Sedlacek is leaving

1 month ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
8739

I hope the market will do what is needed: show these m0r0ns how this horrible system with endless admin and teaching cannot last for long.

1 month ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
8739

Where is he going?

PS Because Sedlacek is leaving

1 month ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
5246

I hope the market will do what is needed: show these m0r0ns how this horrible system with endless admin and teaching cannot last for long.

Uni is doing fine from the market now. Lots of applicants, many of them excellent. If they get a Nobel prize it will be from someone at Nuffield or All Souls. In the meantime, lots of bright juniors doing lots of undergrad teaching in the colleges.

1 month ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 1 No Jab !
Economist
5246

PS In the last few years, ChristChurch has been abandoned by Prowse (now Purdue), Manova (UCL), Hansen (Imperial) and Sedlacek (TBC).

1 month ago # QUOTE 2 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
d6ab

I hope the market will do what is needed: show these m0r0ns how this horrible system with endless admin and teaching cannot last for long.

Uni is doing fine from the market now. Lots of applicants, many of them excellent. If they get a Nobel prize it will be from someone at Nuffield or All Souls. In the meantime, lots of bright juniors doing lots of undergrad teaching in the colleges.

They lost all their best staff, and they insist the uni is doing fine???? Many qualified applicants in a market with other external offers now, or most likely in the near future.

Let's see how many of those new staff will last more than a couple of years, there is nothing to indicate they will have any incentives to stay. Salary is still comparatively low, teaching and admin burden high, so why stay?

These people that end up taking the job most likely will get better offers and Oxford won't do any retention offers. What baffles me is why they still claim have the best undergraduate tutors in the world? All good staff have left. Look at the turnover at christ church, that is not a good sign of having the best tutors.

1 month ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
b631

Updated list of leavers since 2010:

1. Quah
2. Manova
3. Adam
4. Shepard
5. Beaudry
6. Keane
7. Bhattacharya
8. Patton
9. Huffman
10. Heller
11. Mukherji
12. Vigier
13. Hansen
14. Wallace
15. Gill
16. Fenske
17. Boneva
18. Fafchamps
19. Myatt
20. Prowse
21. Ulyssea
22. Esteves
23. O'Rourke
24. Sedlacek

1 month ago # QUOTE 2 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
cb8b

I hope the market will do what is needed: show these m0r0ns how this horrible system with endless admin and teaching cannot last for long.

Uni is doing fine from the market now. Lots of applicants, many of them excellent. If they get a Nobel prize it will be from someone at Nuffield or All Souls. In the meantime, lots of bright juniors doing lots of undergrad teaching in the colleges.

Haha Uni is doing fine in the market not because of the Uni, but rather because of the pandemic - clearly an omitted factor here. And anyway, those who are good applied to other better places which more likely will get a way better offer, and those who will accept Oxford lowball offer, as soon as the pandemic is over, will go somewhere else. Check the trend above, there is nothing to think this time they will be able to retain staff. Capacity to offer good salary is still low, and ads clearly show how heavy teaching/admin the jobs really are, in particular on the college side. The college side of tasks are just brutal for junior scholar.

Meanwhile colleges continue to recruit the "top talent" post-docs for a very generous 23,754 GBP a year. Yes, you read correctly. At least they have free food (when available), and maybe room (probably with shared bathroom)

https://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/CCQ956/the-christopher-cox-junior-fellowship

Clearly a hot meal and a room is the best policy to attract the best talent, of cutting edge researchers, world leading experts and tutors who provide the best undergraduate teaching in the world.

1 month ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
01f4

I hope the market will do what is needed: show these m0r0ns how this horrible system with endless admin and teaching cannot last for long.

Uni is doing fine from the market now. Lots of applicants, many of them excellent. If they get a Nobel prize it will be from someone at Nuffield or All Souls. In the meantime, lots of bright juniors doing lots of undergrad teaching in the colleges.

Haha Uni is doing fine in the market not because of the Uni, but rather because of the pandemic - clearly an omitted factor here. And anyway, those who are good applied to other better places which more likely will get a way better offer, and those who will accept Oxford lowball offer, as soon as the pandemic is over, will go somewhere else. Check the trend above, there is nothing to think this time they will be able to retain staff. Capacity to offer good salary is still low, and ads clearly show how heavy teaching/admin the jobs really are, in particular on the college side. The college side of tasks are just brutal for junior scholar.
Meanwhile colleges continue to recruit the "top talent" post-docs for a very generous 23,754 GBP a year. Yes, you read correctly. At least they have free food (when available), and maybe room (probably with shared bathroom)
https://www.jobs.ac.uk/job/CCQ956/the-christopher-cox-junior-fellowship
Clearly a hot meal and a room is the best policy to attract the best talent, of cutting edge researchers, world leading experts and tutors who provide the best undergraduate teaching in the world.

Stop making irony of us. This year 5 people were already selected for research leadership positions with zero college teaching, and next year a few others will be chosen again (and the plan is to continue with the offering for the foreseeable future). We will have several research only positions and be able to retain those we think are deserving. The place is changing, open your eyes, and stop bushing us, please. Give us a break now!

1 month ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
8739

^ You want slaves. Why burden some people with so much teaching and admin? Why don't you follow the US way, where everybody teaches the same, and juniors even less in the beginning?

1 month ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
e644

Stop making irony of us. This year 5 people were already selected for research leadership positions with zero college teaching, and next year a few others will be chosen again (and the plan is to continue with the offering for the foreseeable future). We will have several research only positions and be able to retain those we think are deserving. The place is changing, open your eyes, and stop bushing us, please. Give us a break now!

Ah interesting. Can you clarify? Those research positions are only for very senior people, maybe well connected, that did not leave Oxford and lingered on. Good ones got better offers and left.

All the 5 positions advertised last year had brutal college teaching, and clearly all the 4 positions advertised in this year --anyone just read the ad-- is brutal on the college side. At least they claim to be targeting juniors, but:

Why have a system that is regressive? Overburden juniors, so seniors can research? Every single good econ department reduces teaching for juniors, why try to recruit with brutal teaching, low salary and conditions for juniors? Just look at the college research stipend, it is very very low. Why not give research positions for juniors the first few years, and then increase teaching equitably once they pass tenure? Like any other department.

Oxford still thinking they are special, and think they can attract the best, by offering more work for juniors in the first years. Clearly in reverse of the world.

And now Oxford claims to be modernizing, but if anything, they are implementing a regressive system that is not attractive. Why? Why have a system that is regressive and overburden juniors? Why not reduce teaching the first years for them to develop a career? Worse, why advertise a heavy teaching/admin job, and expect a different outcome?

1 month ago # QUOTE 2 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
eec2

PS In the last few years, ChristChurch has been abandoned by Prowse (now Purdue), Manova (UCL), Hansen (Imperial) and Sedlacek (TBC).

Academics at one of Oxford’s richest colleges have presented mobile phone records to support an allegation that the institution’s dean leaked confidential information, the latest twist of an extraordinary governance row.

Trustees of Christ Church, the alma mater of 13 prime ministers including William Gladstone, have been locked in a very public pay dispute with the dean, Martyn Percy, that has so far involved an attempt to oust him from his position, more than £2m in legal fees and a suspected blackmail campaign.

On Thursday the Charity Commission, which has regulated colleges at Oxford and Cambridge since a legal change a decade ago, ordered the two sides to return to mediation. “It is not our job, as charity regulator, to referee disputes,” it said.

Both sides had wanted the Commission to intervene after Mr Percy broke off mediation efforts in March. The college had offered the dean a settlement worth more than £1m to leave his post, which would cover his legal fees of at least £450,000.

But senior university figures fear that significant intervention by the Commission could have implications for all Oxford colleges, which, unlike most charities, tend to have large numbers of trustees — academics — who are also paid and therefore have a financial interest in the charity’s spending.

The latest row between Mr Percy and the college centres on who leaked a confidential tribunal judgment that largely vindicated Mr Percy of allegations of impropriety relating to the dispute. The dean, who is a senior Church of England priest, has consistently denied being the source of the document.

However, Christ Church’s governing body was told last week that Mr Percy’s work phone records show that in February he was in regular contact with the former Conservative minister Jonathan Aitken, who in March circulated the judgment. Another PDF circulated by Mr Aitken showed its author to be “Martyn Percy”.

Mr Percy declined to comment. He has told the college that an old document could have been edited to include new information. Mr Aitken told the FT that he had not received any documents from Mr Percy. He said he had received the document from an unknown email address by the name of “Henry Wolsey”.

The Charity Commission’s powers include firing trustees and ordering an independent review. The head of another Oxford college said, “If [Christ Church] were a school in Hackney, it would already have been taken into special measures.”

The dispute dates back to 2017, when Mr Percy, who had been appointed three years earlier, asked for a pay increase. It escalated after college figures accused him of trying to rig the make-up of the board that set his salary. In return, Mr Percy began multiple employment claims against the college.

The dean survived an initial attempt to oust him last year, when a retired High Court judge largely cleared him of allegations of impropriety. But relations have worsened since, after copies of the confidential judgment were circulated and leaked to the governing body and the media.

Mr Percy has denied speaking to journalists about internal matters. But he handed over a screenshot of his phone calls, which revealed contact with a journalist at the Times newspaper before it published extracts of the judgment. The college subsequently found multiple text messages and calls between the journalist and Mr Percy. The dean told the college they were regarding his advisory role at the British Board of Film Classification.

Nearly two-thirds of the trustees, mainly academics, have accused Mr Percy of “a consistent lack of moral compass”, and called for the Charity Commission to help to remove him.

Jonathan Aitken © John Stillwell/PA
T...See full post

1 month ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
5246

Please don't copy articles from FT.com and redistribute by email or post to the web.

1 month ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 1 No Jab !
Economist
d3df

UK universities are ALL going in this direction

This UK MRM has already created a 2 tier system among the academics - those that are treated favorably, and given research time + money, and those that are pushed into teaching and admin

1 month ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
cb8b

UK universities are ALL going in this direction
This UK MRM has already created a 2 tier system among the academics - those that are treated favorably, and given research time + money, and those that are pushed into teaching and admin

At least UK universities are transparent about it. They call them teaching fellows or adjunct lecturers, or lecturers in teaching track, so people know what they are getting into.

Oxford is delusional calling very heavy/teaching admin positions, Associate Professorship, and then being surprised when people leave. Worse instead of helping junior people, now they have a "modern system" where already established professors (who didn´t have outside options), get rewarded with no teaching while juniors are left with most of the work. Colleges are just brutal with them, making claims that hot food and a room are sufficient perks, and in exchange expecting never ending admin.

Then Oxford after losing all their talented people, in an act of madness, re-advertises again with this poorly balanced regressive system (all with heavy college teaching/admin), and hopes for a different outcome. They might get some unaware academic for a couple of years, and then the good ones will find a way out of the place. Leaving behind all those who enjoy the free wine and brand name as a form of payment (some of them pseudo-academics who think this is an acceptable form of payment).

1 month ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
7950

It sounds like they are just trying to implement a system that been implemented at other UK Universities, this is mostly driven by Government policy.

1 month ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
5246

UK universities are ALL going in this direction
This UK MRM has already created a 2 tier system among the academics - those that are treated favorably, and given research time + money, and those that are pushed into teaching and admin

At least UK universities are transparent about it. They call them teaching fellows or adjunct lecturers, or lecturers in teaching track, so people know what they are getting into.
Oxford is delusional calling very heavy/teaching admin positions, Associate Professorship, and then being surprised when people leave. Worse instead of helping junior people, now they have a "modern system" where already established professors (who didn´t have outside options), get rewarded with no teaching while juniors are left with most of the work. Colleges are just brutal with them, making claims that hot food and a room are sufficient perks, and in exchange expecting never ending admin.
Then Oxford after losing all their talented people, in an act of madness, re-advertises again with this poorly balanced regressive system (all with heavy college teaching/admin), and hopes for a different outcome. They might get some unaware academic for a couple of years, and then the good ones will find a way out of the place. Leaving behind all those who enjoy the free wine and brand name as a form of payment (some of them pseudo-academics who think this is an acceptable form of payment).

What's the evidence that they are surprised? This has been the pattern for at least a decade now. Either than can't or won't fix it, but I would be surprised if they were surprised...

1 month ago # QUOTE 2 Jab 0 No Jab !

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