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Thread: 1699 Goods vs 639 No Goods

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Female AP here.

Economist
1132

I am a female AP a few years out of grad school, and I want to share some thoughts.

I have never experienced anything that is close to overt or serious sexism in the profession. I am not saying it doesn't happen to anyone, but it is rare. Largely for that reason, I have never really participated in women-in-economics stuff, either online or offline. I don't have a problem with most people who do. People should draw their support and motivation from wherever they want. It just hasn't been for me.

I also have been a moderately frequent EJMR browser and poster for years. Perhaps because I am a woman, I have been able to be somewhat open about that to close colleagues. I defended EJMR against the storm of charges of sexism that happened a year and half ago. My argument was that there was some crude sexism on here for sure, but it was part of a broad set of light hearted crude comments that were made about various groups. Chinese people. The UK in general. Applied microeconomists. Theorists. HRMs. LRMS. Etc. It's probably not the best thing in the world, but it's more a sort of "locker room talk" where everyone gets razzed in a moderately inappropriate way.

Lately, I have felt a bit of a turn on here. The centerpiece for me was the very lengthy thread about gender bias in hiring. It isn't the concept of the discussion that bothers me. A lot of the posts arguing against attempts to hire more women didn't offend me, and I didn't even disagree with all of them.

But there were a decent number of posts in that thread and elsewhere that really bothered me. Posts that were either serious or pretending to be serious that fairly directly said that female economists don't deserve the jobs, publications, or other accolades they get.

It bothers me because I may know a lot of you. It feels like my male colleagues in my department or around the economics world may be secretly hating me. Saying behind my back that my fairly modest accomplishments in the field of economics are entirely undeserved. And that is a very unpleasant feeling.

So I wanted to get that off my chest. I am not really sure what I am asking for. Asking for apologies or people to stop isn't going to work. So maybe just read and consider this message.

Thanks for your time. I will respond to any reasonably civil comments.

4 years ago # QUOTE 139 Volod 12 Vlad !
Economist
781c

Goodmorning. Glad you woke up to why there are women's groups - it is exactly that. Your next door colleague, your department chair believe deep inside that you are not very good, deserving of a publication, or if you do get a top 5, somebody must have helped you. They may not behave in ways to make this clear at first, but it will come out over the years. Give it couple more years and you will wake up to the sexual harassment too once you realize that it is pretty common.

-- Fellow female AP

4 years ago # QUOTE 34 Volod 46 Vlad !
Economist
16dd

Let it go.

-Chinabro

4 years ago # QUOTE 13 Volod 15 Vlad !
Economist
1132

Goodmorning. Glad you woke up to why there are women's groups - it is exactly that. Your next door colleague, your department chair believe deep inside that you are not very good, deserving of a publication, or if you do get a top 5, somebody must have helped you. They may not behave in ways to make this clear at first, but it will come out over the years. Give it couple more years and you will wake up to the sexual harassment too once you realize that it is pretty common.
-- Fellow female AP

As I said, I certainly don't think there shouldn't be women's groups. It just isn't for me.

I may well experience something in person that is not cool at some point. But I have a support system that works for me, that doesn't happen to involve bonding with other female economists over being female economists.

I find that the best support system for issues having to do with work are family and friends removed from that world. It's just what works and doesn't work for me. I would never discourage anyone else from joining a women's group, and I hope my message didn't come off as a condemnation of them.

4 years ago # QUOTE 21 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
1132

I realize that last post somewhat contradicted what I said in my original post, where I implied that the reason I don't join women's groups is because I haven't experienced anything serious.

My last post is probably closer to what I mean. I set up my support system outside of work, and I would lean on it if and when a case of serious sexism or sexual harassment came up. What I meant in the initial post was that if I were constantly experiencing it from multiple fronts, I might be more likely to take some action within the profession.

4 years ago # QUOTE 7 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
adb7

Lately, I have felt a bit of a turn on here.

You and me both, ma'am.

4 years ago # QUOTE 13 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
1132

Let it go.
-Chinabro

A great example of the inappropriate razzing I am ok with!

4 years ago # QUOTE 9 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
11d4

To the extent that “positive” discrimination exists in terms of placement, publication, or tenure decisions, your (Bayesian) colleagues will rightly be skeptical of your accomplishments.

Your best weapon against this is to make sure you (or anyone else) do not give unfair advantages to female economists solely based upon their gender.

Hold everyone to the same high standards and only then can we know accomplishments are equally well earned.

4 years ago # QUOTE 38 Volod 8 Vlad !
Economist
908e

but it was part of a broad set of light hearted crude comments that were made about various groups. Chinese people. The UK in general. Applied microeconomists. Theorists. HRMs. LRMS. Etc.

I mostly agree with OP, but I want to clarify that there is nothing light hearted about my shaming of people in the UK - I meant every single word of it and I have nothing but contempt for you tea drinking morons.

4 years ago # QUOTE 59 Volod 1 Vlad !
Economist
1132

To the extent that “positive” discrimination exists in terms of placement, publication, or tenure decisions, your (Bayesian) colleagues will rightly be skeptical of your accomplishments.
Your best weapon against this is to make sure you (or anyone else) do not give unfair advantages to female economists solely based upon their gender.
Hold everyone to the same high standards and only then can we know accomplishments are equally well earned.

Are there any serious accusations that there is a pro-female bias in publications?

If you don't have any reason to believe it, then you are a good illustration of what bothers me. You are taking a huge leap from "sometimes women get a hiring advantage", a reasonably defensible point, to "women don't deserve anything they get".

Put another way, you argue that in what you want is for each economist to be treated on their individual merits instead of a class of people they are in. Fair enough, a laudable goal. But how can you turn around and say it is "rational" for you to judge me based on my gender instead of my individual merits? How is that consistent at all?

4 years ago # QUOTE 33 Volod 3 Vlad !
Economist
781c

To the extent that “positive” discrimination exists in terms of placement, publication, or tenure decisions, your (Bayesian) colleagues will rightly be skeptical of your accomplishments.
Your best weapon against this is to make sure you (or anyone else) do not give unfair advantages to female economists solely based upon their gender.
Hold everyone to the same high standards and only then can we know accomplishments are equally well earned.

To the extent that “negative” discrimination exists in terms of placement, as evidenced, in publication, or tenure decisions, your (Bayesian) colleagues will rightly understand that your achievements and accomplishments are below what you truly deserve.

4 years ago # QUOTE 5 Volod 1 Vlad !
Economist
eb98

Agree with OP's observation about the change in the climate here recently.

4 years ago # QUOTE 12 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
1132

Agree with OP's observation about the change in the climate here recently.

Thanks! It is unfortunate but perhaps predictable that accusing the board of being sexist had the result of making it more sexist.

4 years ago # QUOTE 25 Volod 4 Vlad !
Economist
08b6

I don’t think it is so much about gender, but it is about jealousy. There is so much of it in the profession. My best advice is to give zero f**ks what everyone else thinks about you and just write the best papers you can. At the end of the day, that is the only thing that eople will remember you for in 30 years. The rest is dust.

4 years ago # QUOTE 24 Volod 3 Vlad !
Economist
c778

Rightly or wrongly, most male APs think that hiring is biased toward women. The best response to this is to publish papers. Almost everyone thinks the publication process isn't gender biased - if you publish papers, people will respect you. It has the added benefit of getting you tenure.

Additionally, just because you got a small edge in a competition doesn't mean you don't deserve the prize. White people are held to lower standards than Asians in hiring. Do white people not deserve their jobs? Likable people are held to lower standards in hiring. Do likable people not deserve their jobs? etc.

4 years ago # QUOTE 19 Volod 2 Vlad !
Economist
eb98

Agree with OP's observation about the change in the climate here recently.

Thanks! It is unfortunate but perhaps predictable that accusing the board of being sexist had the result of making it more sexist.

Yeah. I was on demand-side and it was just very clear that, at least this year, the top candidates in applied micro were disproportionately women. That was disappointingly treated like thought crime in the flyout gender balance thread.

4 years ago # QUOTE 12 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
11d4

I think I triggered the bot.

Certain AER editors have admitted to going easier on female submissions. That was my basis for the publication bias comment.

On the other point, I think it’s perfectly consistent to wish for individuals to be judged on merits, but still recognize that the existence of group bias muddles signals in a systematic way.

Since I have no information particular to you, I can only make statements which are logically true in general.

4 years ago # QUOTE 17 Volod 4 Vlad !
Economist
77c9

This is exactly what I would write. Just way better written. I’ll send you my papers for editing now!

Rational agents undo any bias. You cannot buy your own trophies.

Yes I have serious evidence of people hiring, promoting, co authoring with women because of their gender...

Sorry, I know that there is absolutely NOTHING worse than being an actual winner but at the same time being part of some “identity” correctly favored by quotas. Ask any successful black person what they think about that.

To the extent that “positive” discrimination exists in terms of placement, publication, or tenure decisions, your (Bayesian) colleagues will rightly be skeptical of your accomplishments.
Your best weapon against this is to make sure you (or anyone else) do not give unfair advantages to female economists solely based upon their gender.
Hold everyone to the same high standards and only then can we know accomplishments are equally well earned.

4 years ago # QUOTE 12 Volod 2 Vlad !
Economist
77c9

*Currently, not correctly.

4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Volod 0 Vlad !
Economist
8bfb

I have many questions to young, successful, female APs. Sadly, zero has to do with the topic here.

4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Volod 1 Vlad !

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