Fryer writes letter to NYT « Economics Job Market Rumors

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Thread: 520 Goods vs 250 No Goods

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Fryer writes letter to NYT

Economist
b139

Wow, calm down. Did you forget to take your pills this morning?

It may very well be worth the tradeoff to clean up the atmosphere where people "have on occasion made off-color jokes and commented on one another’s lives outside of work, including their dating lives" in order not to discourage women. But a tradeoff it is. A sterile environment where people make no jokes is also going to discourage some people.

This is insane.
(a) You've either drawn an equivalence between sexual harassment and a sterile work environment in your tradeoff -- which makes you a horrible person -- or you rightly think sexual harassment is worse than a sterile work environment which makes your entire post irrelevant.
(b) Sexual harassment isn't exclusive to economics, and concerns around harassment are not disproportionate to concerns elsewhere, meaning a sterile environment will discourage unfunny people like you everywhere. You're conflating societal trends with field-specific effects.
(c) Your "sterile environment" comment implies that in the absence of sexualized jokes, there are no funny jokes left. You sound unfunny.

2 years ago # QUOTE 5 Jab 5 No Jab !
Economist
9b9f

What I don’t get is why no colleagues, current, or former lab employees have written in support of Fryer.

Simple: they do not support him.

They have actually. I am one of them, and many others have too. The difference is that we mostly do so privately, to decision makers. Because we actually have respect for all the individuals involved (accused and accusers), and for the investigation process itself.

2 years ago # QUOTE 11 Jab 3 No Jab !
Economist
3c89

Just checked his pubs. Interesting topics but I'm surprised that someone that only does linear regressions is such a star.

2 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 6 No Jab !
Economist
beed

Methodology > questions? Lol

Just checked his pubs. Interesting topics but I'm surprised that someone that only does linear regressions is such a star.

2 years ago # QUOTE 6 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
1ecd

https://www.econjobrumors.com/topic/please-stop-referring-to-academics-as-stars-1

Just checked his pubs. Interesting topics but I'm surprised that someone that only does linear regressions is such a star.

2 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 1 No Jab !
Economist
d135

Further, I never retaliated against any employee; I never wrote a negative recommendation letter for anyone; I never refused to write a letter of recommendation for any lab researcher; I never bullied anyone; no Harvard official has ever expressed concern to me over my conduct; and I never made sexual advances to any employee.

It seems like the investigators already have hard evidence contradicting some parts of this (no Harvard employee expressing concern, no sexual advances). Also from everything I've heard about RF he's definitely lying about never bullying anyone.

2 years ago # QUOTE 3 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
175b

Further, I never retaliated against any employee; I never wrote a negative recommendation letter for anyone; I never refused to write a letter of recommendation for any lab researcher; I never bullied anyone; no Harvard official has ever expressed concern to me over my conduct; and I never made sexual advances to any employee.

It seems like the investigators already have hard evidence contradicting some parts of this (no Harvard employee expressing concern, no sexual advances). Also from everything I've heard about RF he's definitely lying about never bullying anyone.

Why does it seem that way to you? What hard evidence?

And even if he's a bully...that's not the allegation, and many people are bullies

2 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
2c36

Speaking of his pubs, was anyone else surprised and impressed by the restless bandits paper?

Shows some chops that I never knew he had.

2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
3743

It's interesting, honestly the claims he makes regarding LoRs and admits are and should be relatively easy to verify if they are wrong - surely someone will state clearly as part of the inquiry what kind of retaliation they faced and how it affected their placement into PhD programs.

How do you verify letters that were never written? The only evidence that would support his claim is if he did send plenty of positive letters for the women who were (allegedly) threatened by him. Negative letters would, presumably, be evidence against him. And all other cases (i.e. no letters) are inconclusive and would be consistent with both his and the women's stories.

It's not just about letters he didn't write. He claimed women who worked at the lab got admits into top 10 PhD programs. That's also something that should be easily verifiable, since it's inconsistent with the claim that his retaliation led to one person to get zero admits when applying to programs.

2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
c9f8

It's interesting, honestly the claims he makes regarding LoRs and admits are and should be relatively easy to verify if they are wrong - surely someone will state clearly as part of the inquiry what kind of retaliation they faced and how it affected their placement into PhD programs.

How do you verify letters that were never written? The only evidence that would support his claim is if he did send plenty of positive letters for the women who were (allegedly) threatened by him. Negative letters would, presumably, be evidence against him. And all other cases (i.e. no letters) are inconclusive and would be consistent with both his and the women's stories.

It's not just about letters he didn't write. He claimed women who worked at the lab got admits into top 10 PhD programs. That's also something that should be easily verifiable, since it's inconsistent with the claim that his retaliation led to one person to get zero admits when applying to programs.

In other words, if everyone were to shut up and wait for the investigation to include, we would then actually have enough information to have a meaningful discussion.

2 years ago # QUOTE 3 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
c499

... I never bullied anyone; no Harvard official has ever expressed concern to me over my conduct; and I never made sexual advances to any employee.

It seems like the investigators already have hard evidence contradicting some parts of this (no Harvard employee expressing concern, no sexual advances). Also from everything I've heard about RF he's definitely lying about never bullying anyone.

RF said no Harvard official expressed concern, not Harvard employee. Is a department head or Dean an "official?" Who are officials at a U?

2 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
c98a

It's interesting, honestly the claims he makes regarding LoRs and admits are and should be relatively easy to verify if they are wrong - surely someone will state clearly as part of the inquiry what kind of retaliation they faced and how it affected their placement into PhD programs.

How do you verify letters that were never written? The only evidence that would support his claim is if he did send plenty of positive letters for the women who were (allegedly) threatened by him. Negative letters would, presumably, be evidence against him. And all other cases (i.e. no letters) are inconclusive and would be consistent with both his and the women's stories.

It's not just about letters he didn't write. He claimed women who worked at the lab got admits into top 10 PhD programs. That's also something that should be easily verifiable, since it's inconsistent with the claim that his retaliation led to one person to get zero admits when applying to programs.

In other words, if everyone were to shut up and wait for the investigation to include, we would then actually have enough information to have a meaningful discussion.

The NYT article was based on leaked reports from the already concluded investigations, which found evidence of wrongdoing. Harvard is waiting for all of the investigations to conclude before deciding punishment.

2 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
c9f8

Selective leaks of quotes out of context is not the same as releasing real information

2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 2 No Jab !
Economist
c98a

Selective leaks of quotes out of context is not the same as releasing real information

There is no appropriate context for an employer to be sending sexually suggestive text messages to an employee.

2 years ago # QUOTE 6 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
4f2a

There's your problem, right here:

Pretty disappointing that economists so bent on credible evidence in their work...

2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
c55e

i hope victims are at least slightly righted by a just punishment for him (if the right authorities find that he deserves one). they deserve all the best and I wish it for them.

Tangentially this letter though reveals the clubbiness of this profession. Not that this is new info. Some famous reg monkey just gives away top 10 admits? A lot of people worked hard and didn’t get access to famous reg monkeys. Where are everyone’s top 10 admits?

2 years ago # QUOTE 8 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
3743

The NYT article was based on leaked reports from the already concluded investigations, which found evidence of wrongdoing. Harvard is waiting for all of the investigations to conclude before deciding punishment.

This would actually be a serious violation of Title IX.

Anyway, I think there are 2 takeaways from this:

1) Allegations were more serious than those mentioned in the Crimson. The way he allegedly retaliated particularly caught my eye - it is unprofessional, and really unfair to sink someone's PhD prospects like that.

2) Some of the claims by both sides on the retaliation allegations are in fact easily verifiable through a discovery process - both that one alleged victim applied but got zero admits and that women from the lab get top 10 PhD admits. Only one of these is true, regardless of what he may have written in a LoR or if he even refused to write one as retaliation too.

I also think this will likely end up in ordinary courts.

2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 1 No Jab !
Economist
3743

And just to clarify, RF explicitly made strong claims on PhD admits:

"I am proud of the lab’s record of hiring, retaining and promoting women within our organization and our stellar history of placing women in the world’s top Ph.D. programs. Every female research assistant has been admitted into at least one top 10 graduate program upon completion of her research fellowship at EdLabs. Furthermore, the majority of lab employees and the vast majority of its managers are women."

The only exception would be if someone didn't complete her fellowship as a result of an alleged retaliation. But if she was determined I assume she did - if she didn't I presume that would have been stated in the NYT article in a rather prominent fashion, since that's even more serious if anything.

2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
78f1

The NYT article was based on leaked reports from the already concluded investigations, which found evidence of wrongdoing. Harvard is waiting for all of the investigations to conclude before deciding punishment.

This would actually be a serious violation of Title IX.
Anyway, I think there are 2 takeaways from this:
1) Allegations were more serious than those mentioned in the Crimson. The way he allegedly retaliated particularly caught my eye - it is unprofessional, and really unfair to sink someone's PhD prospects like that.
2) Some of the claims by both sides on the retaliation allegations are in fact easily verifiable through a discovery process - both that one alleged victim applied but got zero admits and that women from the lab get top 10 PhD admits. Only one of these is true, regardless of what he may have written in a LoR or if he even refused to write one as retaliation too.
I also think this will likely end up in ordinary courts.

The place for this is internal Harvard adjudication and ordinary courts. Not twitter mob justice.

2 years ago # QUOTE 3 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
c9f8

Good to see so many defenders of truth and due process on here. EJMR strong. Stronger by far than Twitter.

2 years ago # QUOTE 4 Jab 0 No Jab !

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