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• Thread: 64 Goods vs 3 No Goods

1. Economist
   b327
   

   Don't know about other subjects, except perhaps engineering and law which also couldn't care less about scholarship.

   Policy influence: difficult. As a general rule, German politicians hate economists. They are either teachers or lawyers and don't undrstand us. There are a few top dogs, obviously, Sinn, Fratzscher, perhaps now Fuest, Ruerup, Raffeldingsbums, but difficult to get into that scene, especially coming from abroad.

   There is no glory to professorial life, if that's what you are asking. You are essentially a better paid high school teacher, with irrationally high prestige in the gen pop.

   4 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !

2. Economist
   01b3
   

   How is life as a W3 professor in Germany with a non-working wife and 2 kids? Can you live comfortably or would you struggle? I know you make less than US professors but a German friend told me that a W3 salary puts you among the top 5% income earners in Germany (and even top 2-3% if you factor in pension benefits & less taxes etc.). Is that really true?

   Absolutely. Let's say, even if you are not a star, you may expect a family income (including Zulagen, Kindergeld etc) of 100k gross, 70k net (remember you don't pay social security contributions). This sounds meagre by US standards, but keep in mind that this is a guaranteed, lifetime income, pension benefits, widower surviver's benefit and all. If you have any curvature in your utility function, the "safety" of the "Beamten" salary is worth a lot.

   100k puts you among the top 3% of income earners in Germany.

   And now consider that in most cities, you will have virtually no expenditures for your kids' education. That means that even in the most expensive cities (Munich, Frankfurt, first and foremost) you will be doing fine, and in more "normal" cities like Cologne, Mannheim, Berlin you should be doing great (financially).

   Really -- a drop in living standards is the *one* thing you should not be worried if you go back to Germany, even with two kids and a SAHM wife.

   4 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !

3. Economist
   61f7
   

   ...so how common is 100k gross? Suppose you have been Assistant Prof. in a top 50 US school for 4 years.
   Is 100k something you could expect?

   4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

4. Economist
   b327
   

   I think 01B3 painted the picture a bit rosy while I agree with the basic message. 100 K gross is getting more common, but not clear you will be able to get that even coming from the US, especially not from top 50 who no one heard of in Germany and as an ass prof only.

   I think a better exoected salary is 90 K gross, which is still good.

   But I dont think 01B3 quite knows US salary dynamics. Even associates can easily make 200 k here, full considerably more, certainly in even crappy Bschools. And at that level you are better off in the US.

   The other thing that Germans tend not to factor in: they are happy with very small abodes. They all rent and live in tiny spaces compared to what Anericans would consider good. As a prof in the US you have huge kickass houses, in Germsny tiny, if stylish flats.

   4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

5. Economist
   b327
   

   And btw: going back from US top 50 is hopeless. No one will even consider your app.

   4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

6. Economist
   01b3
   

   The other thing that Germans tend not to factor in: they are happy with very small abodes. They all rent and live in tiny spaces compared to what Anericans would consider good. As a prof in the US you have huge kickass houses, in Germsny tiny, if stylish flats.

   Yes, in Germany we tend not to confuse size with quality... In the US you can also get a yuge yuge car for $30k, but then the usual German nitpickers complain about the quality of plastics.

   4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

7. Economist
   01b3
   

   Jokes aside, b237, I think you and I can agree in general. And yes, I *am* aware of the salary dynamics in the US. I've lived long enough in both places. But let me add to this. My consumption pattern (I like hi-quality cars, I like buying good food, sometimes organic) makes me compete with the top earners in the US, people with a family income of >500k. To get the same-quality groceries that I get here in Europe in the US, I would end up buying groceries at Whole Foods most of the time (TJ's where available), spending twice as much in groceries each week in the US compared to Europe.

   But then again, if you have a consumption pattern different from mine (you're fine with buying at Wal-Mart, and like big cheap cars and houses), then of course you're happier with 250k in the US than with 100k in Europe.

   4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

8. Economist
   b327
   

   High quality food is cheaper in Europe no doubt. But food budget is generally a small portion of your overall budget. Also it's not like there is nothing in between Walmart and Wholefoods. Overall I find grocery shopping a much more pleasant experience in the US. Ethnic food quality and variety is superior in the US, too.

   Lots of profs drive BMW, so bad quality cars? Don't think so.

   And yeah your houses have walls that stand in 500 years time, but who cares.

   I did the calc once: everything above 200 K outside big cities beats a German prof salary. So yes you have to earn much more in the US, but you are exaggerating it with your 500 K.

   Finally, most high talent non Germans in the world prefer the US over German professorships, so maybe just maybe quality of life is better from a certain point on.

   4 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !

9. Economist
   61ab
   

   I don't know about the exact income percentiles, but yes you can live comfortably. For one thing, you never worry about education expenses.
   As I have said before: if you don't care about scholarship, being a German professor is a great thing.

   It is true. I have more than two kids and a house with a big garden in one of the largest cities in Germany and my wife did not get a job for years (which is bad for her but not money wise). Influence in politics be important if you forget about scholarship - look at Roeller who is Staatssekretaer im Bundeskanzleramt and was with Merkel when she talked to Obama last month in Berlin.

   4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

10. Economist
    61ab
    

    Finally, most high talent non Germans in the world prefer the US over German professorships, so maybe just maybe quality of life is better from a certain point on.

    For those people Germany has also something to offer, but this is not a university: These are the Max-Planck-Institute. Same pay, no teaching load. If you pick top5 in the US, please compare those to the MPI, not any university.

    4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

11. Economist
    92e9
    

    Roeller is an exception. Cmon.

    The German exonomist with the largest policy influence of all times is Bernd Lucke anyway

    4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

12. Economist
    98d3
    

    Except there are next to none for Econ

    Finally, most high talent non Germans in the world prefer the US over German professorships, so maybe just maybe quality of life is better from a certain point on.

    For those people Germany has also something to offer, but this is not a university: These are the Max-Planck-Institute. Same pay, no teaching load. If you pick top5 in the US, please compare those to the MPI, not any university.

    4 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !

13. Economist
    61ab
    

    Martin Hellwig? Kai Konrad?

    4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

14. Economist
    5fb7
    

    Yes, but we were talking about a 4 year ass prof from top 50 US. How much policy influence this guy will get. These positions are occupied by 10 top dogs and that's it. And, btw, you should ask Hellwig how much policy influence he had.

    Or did you mean MPI? Sure, there are two or three. Great. That will surely attract a lot of people to come to Germany.

    4 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !

15. Economist
    4618
    

    Really? Why are Germans so snobbish? US top 50 (say UCSD or Boston College) is nothing to sniff at and probably the median placement out of top 5 PhD.

    On the one hand, pubs don't matter and on the other hand, no chance without major pedigree?

    And btw: going back from US top 50 is hopeless. No one will even consider your app.

    4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

16. Economist
    5fb7
    

    It's completely consistent. They do not care about pubs, if they did, of course they should kill for someone from UCSD and BC. No, in general, they just want teachers and managers, so homegrown is better. But, conditional on going through the trouble, the presis want the press release. Pudonk university hired XYZ from Harvard. Whether this person has published even one piece or not is then completely irrelevant. Think about a press release: Pudonk university hired XYZ from University of California at San Diego. This won't even make it local news.

    4 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !

17. Economist
    5fb7
    

    It's really interesting how people coming from US academia have no understanding of how the German system works...

    4 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !

18. Economist
    4618
    

    Thanks 5FB7 and others. Know your explanations are truly appreciated. I too am astounded how little I know about German academia despite being German (but did my entire post-secondary studies abroad).

    Hopefully I can use the knowledge here and have an option to come home one day. Despite all the downsides of German academia, I'm beginning to miss this country I grew up in (and I say that as someone with Migrationshintergrund).

    4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

19. Economist
    5fb7
    

    I hear you and I know exactly what you are talking about, but don't get your hopes up. Demographic change is over, aggregate number of positions will if anything decline, Germany econ/bwl academia is going back to a bit of a Wagenburgmentalitaet - so your chances are slim. Good luck, though, bro.

    4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

20. Economist
    4618
    

    May I ask for a broad description of your background (I assume you are not OP)?

    I hear you and I know exactly what you are talking about, but don't get your hopes up. Demographic change is over, aggregate number of positions will if anything decline, Germany econ/bwl academia is going back to a bit of a Wagenburgmentalitaet - so your chances are slim. Good luck, though, bro.

    4 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !

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