Watch your language. You sound exactly like typical Dutch people, who use curse words all the time.
You are ridiculous.
I hate the Dutch culture
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Not offensive? To whom? It is not only about the intention; it is about being tolerant (not the Dutch sense) and empathetic.
Maybe the guy that needed to see a specialist may have had a point, but in general what you read about people complaining about the Dutch is totally ridiculous. The best example is the story of the Zwarte Piet. An old tradition that was never intended to be offensive to anyone. some guys move to the Netherlands, and want to abolish it.
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Which benefit? In the Netherlands you must pay for an insurance, but it's useless because the doctors never send you to a specialist. Dutch people have this culture of not going to the doctor and hating preventive medicine somehow.
This attitude that other nations exist solely for your benefit—which is modal among all types of immigrants now—is just one of many things to have turned me away from being an open-borders libertarian economist sperg.
For me the most serious issue in the Netherlands and something most expats were complaining about is the healthcare. After living in the Netherlands for several years I never managed to be sent to a specialist by the general practitioner. I always ended up going to doctors in my home country.
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Dutch Culture 101 - Individualism and the art of "leaving each other alone"
http://insatiablehee.blogspot.com/2006/06/dutch-culture-101-individualism-and.html
Interesting perspective on the Dutch culture. Any Dutchbro to comment whether this is close to truth?Not the narrative I would have chosen, but indicative of the problems nonetheless.
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What happened to the immigrants that work hard and shut the f.ck up? Next thing what, one moves to Munich and protests if for the Oktoberfst there are too many people drinking beer and there is too much German folk music and want it changed to accommodate himself?
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I wanted to add that as a Dutchbro, I think that the Netherlands is the closest thing to paradise on this world. We simply do stuff much better as anybody else.
I think you can best compare it to hobbits, if you are not from the shire, you are not going to like it. But to a hobbit, it is paradise.
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I wanted to add that as a Dutchbro, I think that the Netherlands is the closest thing to paradise on this world. We simply do stuff much better as anybody else.
I think you can best compare it to hobbits, if you are not from the shire, you are not going to like it. But to a hobbit, it is paradise.From your poor English, we can all see that you are not from the Netherlands. Definitely.
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Maybe the guy that needed to see a specialist may have had a point, but in general what you read about people complaining about the Dutch is totally ridiculous. The best example is the story of the Zwarte Piet. An old tradition that was never intended to be offensive to anyone. some guys move to the Netherlands, and want to abolish it.
Look at this - https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2017/11/28/the-netherlands-holiday-blackface-needs-to-go-once-and-for-all/
Also - https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/nov/28/black-pete-extreme-right-appears-to-stoke-dutch-divisions -
Yes, dutch people are a bit peculiar, definitely not the nicest people, but being nice is not necessarily good, see Latin America for example. As a country, it is one of the best organized and best places to live/work on Earth. Yes, dutch people are a bit racist, but no more than US or other parts of Europe.
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Paradise? Nou nou nou… I wouldn't say that at all. But it is a country where things in general, WORK. Few countries can say the same...
I wanted to add that as a Dutchbro, I think that the Netherlands is the closest thing to paradise on this world. We simply do stuff much better as anybody else.
I think you can best compare it to hobbits, if you are not from the shire, you are not going to like it. But to a hobbit, it is paradise. -
For me the most serious issue in the Netherlands and something most expats were complaining about is the healthcare. After living in the Netherlands for several years I never managed to be sent to a specialist by the general practitioner. I always ended up going to doctors in my home country.
I'm currently an expat and have a lot of experience in talking to expats. I can tell you, there is not a single place in the world where expats do not complain about healthcare. Basically, each healthcare system is (slightly) different, and differences are annoying when you don't feel good. It is entirely understandable, and I'm sometimes quite pissed about the heatlthcare system in the country where I currently live, but if you take a step back you can easily see that all healthcare systems in Western Europe provide some of the best health outcomes in the world.
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For me the most serious issue in the Netherlands and something most expats were complaining about is the healthcare. After living in the Netherlands for several years I never managed to be sent to a specialist by the general practitioner. I always ended up going to doctors in my home country.
I'm currently an expat and have a lot of experience in talking to expats. I can tell you, there is not a single place in the world where expats do not complain about healthcare. Basically, each healthcare system is (slightly) different, and differences are annoying when you don't feel good. It is entirely understandable, and I'm sometimes quite pissed about the heatlthcare system in the country where I currently live, but if you take a step back you can easily see that all healthcare systems in Western Europe provide some of the best health outcomes in the world.
I agree. I am not a Dutch and never lived there. I think not only expats, but also natives complain about healthcare in almost every country. A possible exception is Germany.
About the specialist issue, I think this problem exist for natives as well, it is not a trick created to torture newcomers. I know a native Dutch person who had a serious problem at his hand but couldn't get to see a specialist for 9 months. This happened even though he told his doctor that sometimes he can't sleep because of pain. In my third world country, his problem would have been solved by a simple operation in less than two weeks total. But this poor guy couldn't even get an x-ray even though he was a native.
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from interwebs:
think I've come to understand the Dutch much better after over 3 years here, making quite a few dutch and non-dutch friends. Basically, the Dutch mindset is for a very large part a result of extreme individualism:
- Dutch people care about themselves first and foremost; they will only help you if it costs them nothing.
- People are "direct" in the sense that they say what they want to say, without caring much for offended feelings.
- They are "indirect" or "fake" in the sense that they talk A LOT behind each other's back whenever it wouldn't be safe to say something openly. They also use this to put other people down so they can look better themselves.
- As a result of the above, people are very conformist: any small difference will be exploited against you behind your back by those who pretend to be your friends. This also results in a lot of awkward/socially anxious people.
- "Tolerance" is really just indifference; people are not open to ideas from outsiders (conformism).
- People will not pro-actively help others. You have to ask. This is particularly annoying when you don't know you need help, or a certain piece information (e.g. at work.): they'll let you struggle until you ask the right question.On the other hand, this individualism also has advantages:
- Indifference is sometimes nice.
- Dutch people are quite rational and pragmatic.
- Society is very well organized, because an individualistic society needs strong rules to function at all.
- Dutch people (in my experience) are often quite competent, since they can't rely on one another; they have to learn to do things by themselves.- Dutch people are predictable once you understand all that (they don't have crazy unexpected moral principles, weird attitudes, they take care of themselves...), which can make them quite cosy to be with.
And yeah, besides this overall negative picture, the Dutch are still people: they vary wildly from one another, and many are sociable and generous people... It's just that the *average* Dutch person is really self-centered and unfriendly. Other nationalities have other problems !
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I am not Dutch but live in the Netherlands quite a while now. I am quite fond of this country (perhaps the weather could be better and taxes lower).
I am curious from what amazing countries the posters come from. I have traveled quite a bit and the Netherlands ranks pretty high in terms of quality of life.
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Agreed. They are very self-centric, or selfish in my dictionary. But that should still NOT be the reason for them to exploit/squeeze/take advantage of other people (whether Dutch or not). It just looks so unethical to me. There's gonna a bottom line somewhere. We are humans, not those blood suckers!
Quite a few of my expat friends did mention that Dutch people like to gossip and point fingers behind people's back. Nasty habit.
from interwebs:
think I've come to understand the Dutch much better after over 3 years here, making quite a few dutch and non-dutch friends. Basically, the Dutch mindset is for a very large part a result of extreme individualism:
- Dutch people care about themselves first and foremost; they will only help you if it costs them nothing.
- People are "direct" in the sense that they say what they want to say, without caring much for offended feelings.
- They are "indirect" or "fake" in the sense that they talk A LOT behind each other's back whenever it wouldn't be safe to say something openly. They also use this to put other people down so they can look better themselves.
- As a result of the above, people are very conformist: any small difference will be exploited against you behind your back by those who pretend to be your friends. This also results in a lot of awkward/socially anxious people.
- "Tolerance" is really just indifference; people are not open to ideas from outsiders (conformism).
- People will not pro-actively help others. You have to ask. This is particularly annoying when you don't know you need help, or a certain piece information (e.g. at work.): they'll let you struggle until you ask the right question.
On the other hand, this individualism also has advantages:
- Indifference is sometimes nice.
- Dutch people are quite rational and pragmatic.
- Society is very well organized, because an individualistic society needs strong rules to function at all.
- Dutch people (in my experience) are often quite competent, since they can't rely on one another; they have to learn to do things by themselves.
- Dutch people are predictable once you understand all that (they don't have crazy unexpected moral principles, weird attitudes, they take care of themselves...), which can make them quite cosy to be with.
And yeah, besides this overall negative picture, the Dutch are still people: they vary wildly from one another, and many are sociable and generous people... It's just that the *average* Dutch person is really self-centered and unfriendly. Other nationalities have other problems ! -
High quality of life, for whom? For natives only, I am afraid.
BTW, the Dutch government recently decided to change their 30% ruling retroactively for those who have been granted an eight-year approval. What do you make of that? A deal is NOT a deal. It is amazing to see this happening in this country which is famous for being business-smart. Again, their definition of being smart.
I am not Dutch but live in the Netherlands quite a while now. I am quite fond of this country (perhaps the weather could be better and taxes lower).
I am curious from what amazing countries the posters come from. I have traveled quite a bit and the Netherlands ranks pretty high in terms of quality of life. -
About the specialist issue, I think this problem exist for natives as well, it is not a trick created to torture newcomers. I know a native Dutch person who had a serious problem at his hand but couldn't get to see a specialist for 9 months. This happened even though he told his doctor that sometimes he can't sleep because of pain. In my third world country, his problem would have been solved by a simple operation in less than two weeks total. But this poor guy couldn't even get an x-ray even though he was a native.
I guess anything can happen with n=1, but I don't think this is a general thing in the Netherlands. I saw plenty of specialists while living there, and got referrals when ever they were necessary.
I don't know about this specific issue, but are the surgeries that you can easily get in your third-world country considered to be effective and relatively riskless? Is there any discussion on there efficacy or maybe some new interventions that (sometimes) work better than surgery or have less risk? Just to give a crazy example: stomach ulcers used to be fixed by surgery, but we now know that they can be fixed much better with antibiotics. Also, maybe your friend was afraid of getting surgery and tried to avoid/postpone it? Comparing healthcare systems on the basis of anecdotes is very difficult.
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Ok, the Netherlands may be heaven for Dutch people, but it is good to inform people who want to move there of the particulars of Dutch culture that not everyone can easily get accustomed to. In the end, fewer ungrateful expats would complain about the Dutch and Dutch people dont have to put up with so many intruders. Happy happy.