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• 9 months - 177 posts - Latest - RSS
• Thread: 634 Goods vs 240 No Goods

1. Economist
   e0f6
   

   I'm all for making fun of euro salary but please $40k is lower than everything I heard of except perhaps in low ranked Spanish places. Replace $ by € or £ and think outside of the 20 best European places.

   German salaries are public. Postdoc gets around 3k eur a month net.

   It gets a little more if you are married and/or have children, health care and unemployment insurance are completely covered like this, and kindergarden, school and university are free in Germany, there are very few homeless people elsewhere than in Berlin, you can walk in nearly all parks at night without getting robbed or killed (women should stay in lighted areas though as rape sadly does happen as probably next to anywhere in the world). It is similar in many European countries. Just comparing salaries is not reasonable.

   And you can hardly live with a postdoc salary in San Francisco. You should compare AP salaries. Difference to North America is there are less tenure track positions in Europe.

   9 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !

2. Economist
   f403
   

   postdoc in germany does not get 3k net, it is less than that

   9 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 0 No Good !

3. Economist
   e0f6
   

   postdoc in germany does not get 3k net, it is less than that

   Usually yes if married or in a registered relationship. In Euro, so more in USD.
   https://oeffentlicher-dienst.info/c/t/rechner/tv-l/allg?id=tv-l&g=E_13&s=3&zv=VBL&z=100&zulage=&stkl=3&r=&zkf=&kk=15.5%25

   9 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 1 No Good !

4. Economist
   4100
   

   Most western/northern EU places pay between 60 and 80k eur for APs. And its not just academia, wages are just lower in Europe.

   Prices are lower, public services are much better.

   This, 1000x times this

   9 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 2 No Good !

5. Economist
   e0f6
   

   Most western/northern EU places pay between 60 and 80k eur for APs. And its not just academia, wages are just lower in Europe.

   Prices are lower, public services are much better.

   This, 1000x times this

   Public employees in Europe also get way more vacation, often around 6 weeks vs often not much more than 2 overseas. Admittedly not spectacularly relevant for academic positions but definitely for outside options.

   9 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 0 No Good !

6. Economist
   4100
   

   Most western/northern EU places pay between 60 and 80k eur for APs. And its not just academia, wages are just lower in Europe.

   Prices are lower, public services are much better.

   This, 1000x times this

   Public employees in Europe also get way more vacation, often around 6 weeks vs often not much more than 2 overseas. Admittedly not spectacularly relevant for academic positions but definitely for outside options.

   Better health care, social security, pension systems, etc.

   The higher healthcare costs and lower public services in the US explain to a large extent the wage differential between the EU and US.

   9 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 2 No Good !

7. Economist
   00c2
   

   It's an old debate but having been on both sides the big difference is the pace and the work life balance.

   In the US my colleagues would really want to show hard work, come to the office on the week end, etc.

   Where I am now it's quite the opposit. When people work over the week end they are almost ashamed of it. It's fine to say "I don't answer emails between 5pm and 9am".

   9 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 1 No Good !

8. Economist
   b910
   

   I think the health care costs are a red herring. Any full time academic job in the US is going to come with reasonably good health insurance, and probably at low or no cost. Much bigger potential cost is university education for those with kids. That's huge difference between the US and almost any country in the Europe.

   And yeah, public services/public goods suck in the US compared to Western Europe.

   9 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 2 No Good !

9. Economist
   e0f6
   

   Any full time academic job in the US is going to come with reasonably good health insurance, and probably at low or no cost.

   No.

   9 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !

10. Economist
    d687
    

    I'm all for making fun of euro salary but please $40k is lower than everything I heard of except perhaps in low ranked Spanish places. Replace $ by € or £ and think outside of the 20 best European places.

    German salaries are public. Postdoc gets around 3k eur a month net.

    It gets a little more if you are married and/or have children, health care and unemployment insurance are completely covered like this, and kindergarden, school and university are free in Germany, there are very few homeless people elsewhere than in Berlin, you can walk in nearly all parks at night without getting robbed or killed (women should stay in lighted areas though as rape sadly does happen as probably next to anywhere in the world). It is similar in many European countries. Just comparing salaries is not reasonable.

    Not true, Germany has the highest homelessness rate in Europe by far, and it shows. Take a walk in any German town and compare it to nearby Netherlands/Denmark/Austria/Switzerland

    9 months ago # QUOTE 3 Good 0 No Good !

11. Economist
    e0f6
    

    I'm all for making fun of euro salary but please $40k is lower than everything I heard of except perhaps in low ranked Spanish places. Replace $ by € or £ and think outside of the 20 best European places.

    German salaries are public. Postdoc gets around 3k eur a month net.

    It gets a little more if you are married and/or have children, health care and unemployment insurance are completely covered like this, and kindergarden, school and university are free in Germany, there are very few homeless people elsewhere than in Berlin, you can walk in nearly all parks at night without getting robbed or killed (women should stay in lighted areas though as rape sadly does happen as probably next to anywhere in the world). It is similar in many European countries. Just comparing salaries is not reasonable.

    Not true, Germany has the highest homelessness rate in Europe by far, and it shows. Take a walk in any German town and compare it to nearby Netherlands/Denmark/Austria/Switzerland

    Compare it to Boston/San Francisco/Chicago/Minneapolis/New York...

    9 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !

12. Economist
    e0f6
    

    Oh, wikipedia is funny: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population Germany 650,000 2018[15] 0.37% Homelessness in Germany
    *Includes around 350000 refugees in temporary housing or awaiting asylum.
    Oh well, if you count that one year when not everyone had proper housing... Nothing compared to US cities where you regularly see dozens of people on the streets.

    9 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 1 No Good !

13. Economist
    2f39
    

    Better health care, social security, pension systems, etc.
    The higher healthcare costs and lower public services in the US explain to a large extent the wage differential between the EU and US.

    Ok what EU are you talking about? Seriously. Public services are good only in Germany and the Netherlands. France/Spain/Italy/UK suck. They have a national health system but is extremely inefficient and if you want prompt treatment by specialists you need to go private.
    You might have a point with schools, but also there there is wild variation, and certainly in UK state schools are not good.

    9 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 1 No Good !

14. Economist
    6204
    

    - US net public university tuition is similar to that of Canada and the UK, among others. It is an odd comparison to look only at price discriminating private schools.
    - The public pension system in the US, Social Security, is more generous than the public pension systems in most of Europe. The pension/401k you get as a university employee or a professional in the US is almost certainly higher than what you get in Europe.
    - Literally any job you will get with a PhD will include health insurance in the US

    There are public policy concerns in these areas, but none of them have anything to do with your relative options as an academic.

    9 months ago # QUOTE 2 Good 1 No Good !

15. Economist
    e0f6
    

    Better health care, social security, pension systems, etc.
    The higher healthcare costs and lower public services in the US explain to a large extent the wage differential between the EU and US.

    Ok what EU are you talking about? Seriously. Public services are good only in Germany and the Netherlands. France/Spain/Italy/UK suck. They have a national health system but is extremely inefficient and if you want prompt treatment by specialists you need to go private.
    You might have a point with schools, but also there there is wild variation, and certainly in UK state schools are not good.

    Says someone who would not even know of Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, Sweden, Finland, Norway, Iceland... How about Belgium and Ireland? How come European cities are top at quality of life rankings?
    25. Oslo, Norway 24. Stockholm, Sweden 23. Nuremberg, Germany 22. Montreal, Canada 21. Perth, Australia 20. Hamburg, Germany 19. Ottawa, Canada 18. Luxembourg, Luxembourg 17. Melbourne, Australia 16. Toronto, Canada 15. Wellington, New Zealand 14. Bern, Switzerland 13. Berlin, Germany 12. Amsterdam, Netherlands 11. Sydney, Australia 10. Basel, Switzerland 9. Geneva, Switzerland 8. Copenhagen, Denmark 7. Frankfurt, Germany 6. Düsseldorf, Germany 5. Auckland, New Zealand 4. Munich, Germany 3. Vancouver, Canada 2. Zurich, Switzerland 1. Vienna, Austria https://www.thrillist.com/news/nation/cities-with-best-quality-of-life-2019 No US cities for reasons.

    9 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 1 No Good !

16. Economist
    69a2
    

    you can walk in nearly all parks at night without getting robbed or killed (women should stay in lighted areas though as rape sadly does happen as probably next to anywhere in the world).

    Yup, every other country in the world brought in 1+ million m*sl*ms...

    9 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 1 No Good !

17. Economist
    60f2
    

    We are drifting off topic and the question over living in the US versus Europe is not exactly new on this board.

    9 months ago # QUOTE 2 Good 0 No Good !

18. Economist
    e0f6
    

    - US net public university tuition is similar to that of Canada and the UK, among others.

    inexistent in many European countries. Denmark _pays_ its students.

    There are public policy concerns in these areas, but none of them have anything to do with your relative options as an academic.

    Have you considered your quality of life may rise if you are not just in a bubble of people who think they don't need to care of others' problems? E.g. lower crime rates, no opioid crisis, not so many people voting for Presidents who boast they can grap any woman by their pu... or deny climate change?

    9 months ago # QUOTE 1 Good 1 No Good !

19. Economist
    60f2
    

    The real point is this. If you are a JMC wanting to find a job in Europe, it looks like you have to go to the EJM in Rotterdam, even if you are based in the US. If you are European, then you can go home to visit the family on the same trip. If you are not European then this is an opportunity to signal that you are serious about Europe and to get a visa if you need one, which will help enormously with flyouts later. Finally, at the very worst, it will be practice for ASSA.

    9 months ago # QUOTE 2 Good 1 No Good !

20. Economist
    e0f6
    

    We are drifting off topic and the question over living in the US versus Europe is not exactly new on this board.

    How about agreeing to differ on whether different nominal salaries mean some part of the world would do better not to have its own job market?

    9 months ago # QUOTE 0 Good 0 No Good !

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