Ten years since tenure denial « Economics Job Market Rumors

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Ten years since tenure denial

Economist
7128

Took me a couple of years to recover. Moved down a level of course. Spent a lot of time bemoaning my fate but eventually recognised that my reputation could exceed that of my institution. These days, I even get "why are you still at (institution)" once in awhile.

The biggest shock was the quick exclusion - from the seminar circuit, conference keynotes, etc. all of which seem reserved for high-status players. I get it; if you announce that your speaker is from a crappy uni like mine, fewer people show up.

What bothers me most though is how much harder it is to get research funding. Even with a couple of internal awards my budget is lower than it used to be at a "top" institution. Worse, the foundations are status chasers like you've never seen.

On the bright side, I don't mind being left alone to focus on my research. I have enough HRM collaborators from my early career that my work still places OK, even if I am more of a backstage player.

Do I still work hard? Sure, maybe harder than I did as an AP. Why not kick back and just enjoy the tenured 2-2 life? Dunno, maybe deep inside I'm still trying to prove something...if only to myself.

Thanks for listening, despite the pathological verbosity.

2 years ago # QUOTE 82 Jab 4 No Jab !
Economist
546e

We really shouldnt be letting that troll dictate our behavior.

Do you get no grants at all?

Thanks for listening, despite the pathological verbosity.

2 years ago # QUOTE 2 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
b0fc

I like your story. Base on what you wrote, I think I might like you as a person as well.

2 years ago # QUOTE 4 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
18c2

OP, How big a fall are we talking here? From say top 20 to top 100-ish?

2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
9405

I hear you.

2 years ago # QUOTE 2 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
f64f

biggest mistake during my phd is to not have realized how status-driven most people are. thought the the attention I got was because of myself, but in fact it was because of my school.

Took me a couple of years to recover. Moved down a level of course. Spent a lot of time bemoaning my fate but eventually recognised that my reputation could exceed that of my institution. These days, I even get "why are you still at (institution)" once in awhile.
The biggest shock was the quick exclusion - from the seminar circuit, conference keynotes, etc. all of which seem reserved for high-status players. I get it; if you announce that your speaker is from a crappy uni like mine, fewer people show up.
What bothers me most though is how much harder it is to get research funding. Even with a couple of internal awards my budget is lower than it used to be at a "top" institution. Worse, the foundations are status chasers like you've never seen.
On the bright side, I don't mind being left alone to focus on my research. I have enough HRM collaborators from my early career that my work still places OK, even if I am more of a backstage player.
Do I still work hard? Sure, maybe harder than I did as an AP. Why not kick back and just enjoy the tenured 2-2 life? Dunno, maybe deep inside I'm still trying to prove something...if only to myself.
Thanks for listening, despite the pathological verbosity.

2 years ago # QUOTE 18 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
7128

Do you get no grants at all?

I got one a couple years ago when my co_PI was HRM. But I have struck out on my own so far ..which could mean my research sucks, but my papers place well enough that I see a disconnect

2 years ago # QUOTE 2 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
7128

>biggest mistake during my phd is to not have realized how status-driven most people are. thought the the attention I got was because of myself, but in fact it was because of my school.

This. But I don't blame people or harbor resentment. There are so many papers out there; you need heuristics to decide what to pay attention to. I can even let the foundations off the hook given how many people are clamoring for their cash. I'm less sympathetic to referees who go easy on papers by big names or that were presented at NBER meetings.

2 years ago # QUOTE 11 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
7128

OP, How big a fall are we talking here? From say top 20 to top 100-ish?

Top 10 to top 50 would be a fair way to describe it.

And to be fair, I still have some lingering, undeserved privilege from having been in the top tier previously.

2 years ago # QUOTE 6 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
f64f

Thanks for explaining. I understand. I don’t have a tenure-track job and may not have one in the foreseeable future. I don’t hold grudges toward foundations or referees - merely anticipating an adjustment in expectations based on your post and my own belief TBH.

>biggest mistake during my phd is to not have realized how status-driven most people are. thought the the attention I got was because of myself, but in fact it was because of my school.
This. But I don't blame people or harbor resentment. There are so many papers out there; you need heuristics to decide what to pay attention to. I can even let the foundations off the hook given how many people are clamoring for their cash. I'm less sympathetic to referees who go easy on papers by big names or that were presented at NBER meetings.

2 years ago # QUOTE 0 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
6358

Wow, it’s astonishing that you feel discriminated against for being a faculty member at a top50... think about the lives of vlrm trying to get grants or publish something in top5 or top field journals.

2 years ago # QUOTE 18 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
a6fe

Wow, it’s astonishing that you feel discriminated against for being a faculty member at a top50... think about the lives of vlrm trying to get grants or publish something in top5 or top field journals.

The point is if it's bad at a top 50, it's worse for a vlrm.

2 years ago # QUOTE 9 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
7128

Wow, it’s astonishing that you feel discriminated against for being a faculty member at a top50... think about the lives of vlrm trying to get grants or publish something in top5 or top field journals.

Agreed. Thats why I wrote

And to be fair, I still have some lingering, undeserved privilege from having been in the top tier previously.

2 years ago # QUOTE 6 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
c2c9

Good thread, OP. Thank you for sharing your perspective. The obsessions with status and affiliation in economics are really unhealthy.

2 years ago # QUOTE 12 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
32af

go to industry is the best decision

2 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
ce75

btw i’m female. now are you surprised?

biggest mistake during my phd is to not have realized how status-driven most people are. thought the the attention I got was because of myself, but in fact it was because of my school.

Took me a couple of years to recover. Moved down a level of course. Spent a lot of time bemoaning my fate but eventually recognised that my reputation could exceed that of my institution. These days, I even get "why are you still at (institution)" once in awhile.
The biggest shock was the quick exclusion - from the seminar circuit, conference keynotes, etc. all of which seem reserved for high-status players. I get it; if you announce that your speaker is from a crappy uni like mine, fewer people show up.
What bothers me most though is how much harder it is to get research funding. Even with a couple of internal awards my budget is lower than it used to be at a "top" institution. Worse, the foundations are status chasers like you've never seen.
On the bright side, I don't mind being left alone to focus on my research. I have enough HRM collaborators from my early career that my work still places OK, even if I am more of a backstage player.
Do I still work hard? Sure, maybe harder than I did as an AP. Why not kick back and just enjoy the tenured 2-2 life? Dunno, maybe deep inside I'm still trying to prove something...if only to myself.
Thanks for listening, despite the pathological verbosity.

2 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 2 No Jab !
Economist
1d70

No one cares about that

btw i’m female. now are you surprised?

biggest mistake during my phd is to not have realized how status-driven most people are. thought the the attention I got was because of myself, but in fact it was because of my school.

Took me a couple of years to recover. Moved down a level of course. Spent a lot of time bemoaning my fate but eventually recognised that my reputation could exceed that of my institution. These days, I even get "why are you still at (institution)" once in awhile.
The biggest shock was the quick exclusion - from the seminar circuit, conference keynotes, etc. all of which seem reserved for high-status players. I get it; if you announce that your speaker is from a crappy uni like mine, fewer people show up.
What bothers me most though is how much harder it is to get research funding. Even with a couple of internal awards my budget is lower than it used to be at a "top" institution. Worse, the foundations are status chasers like you've never seen.
On the bright side, I don't mind being left alone to focus on my research. I have enough HRM collaborators from my early career that my work still places OK, even if I am more of a backstage player.
Do I still work hard? Sure, maybe harder than I did as an AP. Why not kick back and just enjoy the tenured 2-2 life? Dunno, maybe deep inside I'm still trying to prove something...if only to myself.
Thanks for listening, despite the pathological verbosity.

2 years ago # QUOTE 16 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
66ab

Good thread, OP. Thank you for sharing your perspective. The obsessions with status and affiliation in economics are really unhealthy.

OP seems to still be obsessed with status. They have simply shifted their obsession from institutional status to status based on a "reputation (that) could exceed that of my institution".

2 years ago # QUOTE 5 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
a8ae

I am not a status chaser. After getting my degree, I accepted an LRM job. My adviser told me to wait for a better offer but I didn’t care. Here I have very little research expectations, easy classes to teach, almost no preps by now. A little updating every once in a while. Instead of chasing dreams, I focused on living healthy, getting married, and building a low stress comfortable life with someone I love. I am happy this way. Oh, and I forgot, I got a B+ in Real Analysis.

2 years ago # QUOTE 14 Jab 0 No Jab !
Economist
ff1d

Justin is that you pretending to be Betsey again?

2 years ago # QUOTE 1 Jab 0 No Jab !

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