I doubt the animals care or can tell the difference.
What is the problem with "factory farming"? I don't see anything wrong with it.
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I still eat chicken, beef, lamb, pork, etc., but I do think that from an intellectual perspective it seems difficult to argue that cows and pigs don't feel emotion comparable to what a cat might feel, and I wouldn't really be comfortable with raising cats in factory farming conditions.
Your position is probably more defensible when it comes to fish and shellfish.
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On the one hand, factory farming seems churl and inhumane. On the other hand, so would be unaffordable prices for meat, eggs, and dairy.
Which is preferred?
1: animal suffering but low income families can afford meat, eggs, and dairy
2: no animal suffering but low income families cannot afford meat, eggs, and dairy and instead buy more simple carbohydrate foods of dubious quality
And please don’t respond that low income families should adopt the vegan dietary habits of Brooklyn trustfunders. If that’s you’re inclination, please consider how out of touch you are. “Let the eat vegan!”
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So let me get this straight:
Overcrowding mammals and birds - immoral
Overcrowding fish and shellfish - maybe immoral but fewer people think so
Overcrowding plants - completely acceptable,even where it's measurably the case that overcrowding reduces fitness of all said organisms, and therefore presumably makes them "unhappy." And this arbitrary line is drawn where it is because you empathize easily with birds and mammals, have difficulty empathizing with other animals, and have probably never thought about whether plants "feel bad" at all.
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Also consider what we’re doing to humans with human overcrowding, buddy!
So let me get this straight:
Overcrowding mammals and birds - immoral
Overcrowding fish and shellfish - maybe immoral but fewer people think so
Overcrowding plants - completely acceptable,
even where it's measurably the case that overcrowding reduces fitness of all said organisms, and therefore presumably makes them "unhappy." And this arbitrary line is drawn where it is because you empathize easily with birds and mammals, have difficulty empathizing with other animals, and have probably never thought about whether plants "feel bad" at all. -
Also consider what we’re doing to humans with human overcrowding, buddy!
So let me get this straight:
Overcrowding mammals and birds - immoral
Overcrowding fish and shellfish - maybe immoral but fewer people think so
Overcrowding plants - completely acceptable,
even where it's measurably the case that overcrowding reduces fitness of all said organisms, and therefore presumably makes them "unhappy." And this arbitrary line is drawn where it is because you empathize easily with birds and mammals, have difficulty empathizing with other animals, and have probably never thought about whether plants "feel bad" at all.
Because, somewhat ironically, people empathize with mammals and birds more easily than they empathize with other people, which is why the internet will freak out if somebody does something mean to a dog, but most acts of cruelty against other humans get a "meh."
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That’s exactly the point I was trying to make. Cheers, mate!
Also consider what we’re doing to humans with human overcrowding, buddy!
So let me get this straight:
Overcrowding mammals and birds - immoral
Overcrowding fish and shellfish - maybe immoral but fewer people think so
Overcrowding plants - completely acceptable,
even where it's measurably the case that overcrowding reduces fitness of all said organisms, and therefore presumably makes them "unhappy." And this arbitrary line is drawn where it is because you empathize easily with birds and mammals, have difficulty empathizing with other animals, and have probably never thought about whether plants "feel bad" at all.
Because, somewhat ironically, people empathize with mammals and birds more easily than they empathize with other people, which is why the internet will freak out if somebody does something mean to a dog, but most acts of cruelty against other humans get a "meh."
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I doubt the animals care or can tell the difference.
How could they not care? The lives of 95% of pigs (~ 1 billion at a given time) and chickens (~20 billion) alive at a given time are torture, pure hell. It would be better for them to never be forced into existence. Our demand for cheap meat and eggs sustains that state of affairs. And has major externalities in emissions, water pollution and soil erosion, too, obv.
The conditions of factory farms -- even in the US and other rich countries -- are heavily guarded, since more info on how these animals are forced to live would be a huge PR disaster, and media orgs are unwilling to show realistic footage because it would unsettle too many people to know how their food is raised. (Leaking photos from inside those places will get you prison time in several US states, Canadian provinces and Australian territories.)
This is in no way comparable to human overcrowding in urban environments. If pigs in factory farms could kill themselves, they would.
I'm firmly convinced that this is the greatest moral failing of our time and will be condemned by our descendants.
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So let me get this straight:
Overcrowding mammals and birds - immoral
Overcrowding fish and shellfish - maybe immoral but fewer people think so
Overcrowding plants - completely acceptable,
even where it's measurably the case that overcrowding reduces fitness of all said organisms, and therefore presumably makes them "unhappy." And this arbitrary line is drawn where it is because you empathize easily with birds and mammals, have difficulty empathizing with other animals, and have probably never thought about whether plants "feel bad" at all.We can also make reasonable inferences about sentience and the consequent capacity to experience pain and suffering, based on evolutionary history, neural complexity and (pain-avoiding) behavior. It needn't be as arbitrary as you're describing, and many animal welfare researchers/lobbyists are trying to get a clearer picture of the relative welfare/suffering implications of different industrial farming techniques, including things like the farming of fish, crustaceans and molluscs. Plants don't possess a nervous system, so it's implausible that we should give much weight to them for welfare considerations specifically.
Some methods of inference are more straightforward. E.g. when a nursing sow in a gestation crate screams for much of her waking hours due to many open sores and no way to comfortably lie down in her cramped cage, then she's probably suffering.
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I doubt the animals care or can tell the difference.
How could they not care? The lives of 95% of pigs (~ 1 billion at a given time) and chickens (~20 billion) alive at a given time are torture, pure hell. It would be better for them to never be forced into existence. Our demand for cheap meat and eggs sustains that state of affairs. And has major externalities in emissions, water pollution and soil erosion, too, obv.
The conditions of factory farms -- even in the US and other rich countries -- are heavily guarded, since more info on how these animals are forced to live would be a huge PR disaster, and media orgs are unwilling to show realistic footage because it would unsettle too many people to know how their food is raised. (Leaking photos from inside those places will get you prison time in several US states, Canadian provinces and Australian territories.)
This is in no way comparable to human overcrowding in urban environments. If pigs in factory farms could kill themselves, they would.
I'm firmly convinced that this is the greatest moral failing of our time and will be condemned by our descendants.Completely false. There's plenty of video from "factory farms". From China, even. Western "factory farms" must look like paradise in comparison.
Just do a YT search for "China pig farm".
The animals look unconcerned. Perfectly content, in fact. After watching many such videos, I feel no compunction in eating pork.
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I doubt the animals care or can tell the difference.
How could they not care? The lives of 95% of pigs (~ 1 billion at a given time) and chickens (~20 billion) alive at a given time are torture, pure hell. It would be better for them to never be forced into existence. Our demand for cheap meat and eggs sustains that state of affairs. And has major externalities in emissions, water pollution and soil erosion, too, obv.
The conditions of factory farms -- even in the US and other rich countries -- are heavily guarded, since more info on how these animals are forced to live would be a huge PR disaster, and media orgs are unwilling to show realistic footage because it would unsettle too many people to know how their food is raised. (Leaking photos from inside those places will get you prison time in several US states, Canadian provinces and Australian territories.)
This is in no way comparable to human overcrowding in urban environments. If pigs in factory farms could kill themselves, they would.
I'm firmly convinced that this is the greatest moral failing of our time and will be condemned by our descendants.Completely false. There's plenty of video from "factory farms". From China, even. Western "factory farms" must look like paradise in comparison.
Just do a YT search for "China pig farm".
The animals look unconcerned. Perfectly content, in fact. After watching many such videos, I feel no compunction in eating pork.There may be a lot footage, but there are simultaneously large efforts to prevent outsiders from getting a realistic and representative picture of conditions inside these places. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-gag
I have no idea what you mean by "unconcerned" and "perfectly content", or how you're able to make that inference. Just image search battery cage
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I doubt the animals care or can tell the difference.
How could they not care? The lives of 95% of pigs (~ 1 billion at a given time) and chickens (~20 billion) alive at a given time are torture, pure hell. It would be better for them to never be forced into existence. Our demand for cheap meat and eggs sustains that state of affairs. And has major externalities in emissions, water pollution and soil erosion, too, obv.
The conditions of factory farms -- even in the US and other rich countries -- are heavily guarded, since more info on how these animals are forced to live would be a huge PR disaster, and media orgs are unwilling to show realistic footage because it would unsettle too many people to know how their food is raised. (Leaking photos from inside those places will get you prison time in several US states, Canadian provinces and Australian territories.)
This is in no way comparable to human overcrowding in urban environments. If pigs in factory farms could kill themselves, they would.
I'm firmly convinced that this is the greatest moral failing of our time and will be condemned by our descendants.Completely false. There's plenty of video from "factory farms". From China, even. Western "factory farms" must look like paradise in comparison.
Just do a YT search for "China pig farm".
The animals look unconcerned. Perfectly content, in fact. After watching many such videos, I feel no compunction in eating pork.There may be a lot footage, but there are simultaneously large efforts to prevent outsiders from getting a realistic and representative picture of conditions inside these places. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-gag
I have no idea what you mean by "unconcerned" and "perfectly content", or how you're able to make that inference. Just image search battery cageWhatever "Ag-gag" is, it doesn't apply in China. Because nobody there feels guilty about the way they treat animals. And I can see perfectly well what the pigs look like in Chinese farms. They walk around normally. They don't run away in fear from humans. They don't look diseased or hurt.
Maybe I should only eat Chinese pork in the future.
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So let me get this straight:
Overcrowding mammals and birds - immoral
Overcrowding fish and shellfish - maybe immoral but fewer people think so
Overcrowding plants - completely acceptable,
even where it's measurably the case that overcrowding reduces fitness of all said organisms, and therefore presumably makes them "unhappy." And this arbitrary line is drawn where it is because you empathize easily with birds and mammals, have difficulty empathizing with other animals, and have probably never thought about whether plants "feel bad" at all.On the off chance this is not a troll post:
1) animals have nervous systems and experience pain. It is likely plants do not.
2) let’s say plants do experience pain. In fact, they experience more pain than animals. Veganism is still the way to go because it kills and harms wayyyy fewer plants than a regular diet. The animals you eat eat plants, bro.
So whether or not plants feel bad, you should be vegan